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Re: Finally accepting reality [Re: KevinM] #2881356
08/19/19 03:07 PM
08/19/19 03:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 533
Bristol, UK
T
timmyab Offline
500 Post Club Member
timmyab  Offline
500 Post Club Member
T

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 533
Bristol, UK
Thanks for posting this, it's just reminded me how much I love Schumann. Such subtlety and warmth in his works.
I'm going to learn this piece I think, just remind me not to venture beyond page one smile

You've done a good job on it already. The tempo might need to go up a little bit I think as you point out to keep the melody line tied together.

Last edited by timmyab; 08/19/19 03:09 PM.
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Re: Finally accepting reality [Re: KevinM] #2881366
08/19/19 03:47 PM
08/19/19 03:47 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,181
M
Moo :) Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Moo :)  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,181
Your Schumann pieces are sounds very good. It is hard to get the notes controlled to get clearly defined phrases. It is a skill I have learnt more recently. I have found that normally it just takes time to get things up to speed. I dont agree with memorisation being the factor that will limit your ability to play it at speed. When I have a piece secure at a slow speed my teacher tells me to push myself at a higher tempo. I normally can play at a faster tempo
but there are a lot more errors. If are some errors but he says dont worry about errors as they can be fixed but you do have to practice faster to get faster. I think you need to practice at a faster tempo and see how it goes. If you want to memorise to see if it helps I would make sure your teacher agrees. Mine would not and I would also never go down that road. Good luck.

Re: Finally accepting reality [Re: Moo :)] #2881391
08/19/19 05:35 PM
08/19/19 05:35 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 860
Sheffield, UK
K
KevinM Online content OP
500 Post Club Member
KevinM  Online Content OP
500 Post Club Member
K

Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 860
Sheffield, UK
Originally Posted by Moo :)
Your Schumann pieces are sounds very good. It is hard to get the notes controlled to get clearly defined phrases. It is a skill I have learnt more recently. I have found that normally it just takes time to get things up to speed. I dont agree with memorisation being the factor that will limit your ability to play it at speed. When I have a piece secure at a slow speed my teacher tells me to push myself at a higher tempo. I normally can play at a faster tempo
but there are a lot more errors. If are some errors but he says dont worry about errors as they can be fixed but you do have to practice faster to get faster. I think you need to practice at a faster tempo and see how it goes. If you want to memorise to see if it helps I would make sure your teacher agrees. Mine would not and I would also never go down that road. Good luck.


I don't know Moo. I was stuck on a little over 2 minutes with Von Fremden Ländern... without being able to change that for ages. I realised after a while I had the piece almost memorised anyway so I made the effort to get property memorised, it didn't take much and I was then able to improve both my regulation and speed. I don't know for sure if it was the memorising and then being able to watch my hands closely as to what they were doing sometimes while other times focus on the interpretation I wanted to give the piece.

It seemed to work, I don't see harm in experimenting and doing that again, though this time memorisation will itself require significant work.

I don't want to memorise every piece I learn, but for ones where I am close to but struggling to get that final finish on the piece I want I think it can help.

If I thought it could fix all problems I'd take the same approach to Bunte Blätter, but I don't think I am close enough with that piece to get me there. But with SWW 19.2 I think there is a chance and I want to give it a go.


Mendelssohn Song without Words Op19,2 and 19,6, Jensen Sehnsucht Op8,5. Chopin Nocturne C# Minor. Schumann Hasche Mann from Kinderszenen Op15,3. https://soundcloud.com/sheffieldkevin
DP: Kawai MP11SE. HP: Superlux HD681 EVO
Re: Finally accepting reality [Re: KevinM] #2881418
08/19/19 06:40 PM
08/19/19 06:40 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,181
M
Moo :) Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Moo :)  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,181
i think there are better ways to practice to get things up to speed. you should not need to memorise. also your piece (von fremden landarn) would be much easier to memorise. this piece you are struggling with speed has several melodies. i therefore would advise you to ask your teacher how to get it up to speed.

i for example and not able to play one part of my piece up to speed at 22:52 and ask my teacher last lesson. my advice was try the following was to practice.

- RH play semiquavers as chords
- LH play on its own to get sharp staccato
- play one beat to second beat firstly RH on its own quickly and repeat, then second to third beat, then third to fouth beat etc.
- then add in beats together
- try then to add in LH and do the same
- play complete phrase with RH / LH phrase slowly
- lastly practice fast



i was not taught 'you have to memorise as you cant read it this fast' which many people have said online. my teacher certainly has never mentioned memorise at all. i understand you are having difficulties with speed and your piece is quite different as mine is only a difficult part but it would give you some insight into how to get things faster. there are a few parts of the piece that have this fast pattern so i would need to practice like this to get them secure. i wonder how exactly you are practicing and if you have discussed with your teacher what practice strategies may help to increase people. it will help to ask your teacher and see their advice. if they advice to leave the piece and come back then that is what i would do. i would think to practice phrases or parts of phrases faster or try other strategies would be what i would be advised. certainly my teacher would not advise memorising as a strategy and so i would be interested on what your teacher things about this as a strategy.

Last edited by Moo :); 08/19/19 06:46 PM.
Re: Finally accepting reality [Re: KevinM] #2881437
08/19/19 07:45 PM
08/19/19 07:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 247
Connecticut, USA
MichaelJK Offline

Full Member
MichaelJK  Offline

Full Member

Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 247
Connecticut, USA
Originally Posted by KevinM
This is also partly self promotion.

I have finally concluded I have to give up on Bunte Blätter. I can only get its speed up to a little over half of what is expected and even then it is still a bit rough.

I still like how I play it and I have added a recording from today to sound cloud Bunte Blätter on Soundcloud even with my two obvious errors.

But this is it, I'm moving on from it, I would like to come back to it in a years time when hopefully I can do it justice then. I really like the piece.

I'm going to take a different approach with my Mendelssohn Song Without Words piece 19,2 which I've been learning for about the same amount of time. I'm much closer to the expected tempo with the SWW piece. I'm now going to try and memorise it and see if that can help me get over the line of better control at tempo. That worked for Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen even though I didn't make memorising a focus. In this case I will try and memorize SWW 19,2 and it will be an interesting experiment if by doing that I can reach a level above where I have currently hit a wall. I found that with memorising Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen I had more brain space for playing with the tempo and feel of the piece which I didn't have while also reading the score.

The reason for the different approach between these two pieces is I am still so far from how I want things to be with Bunte Blätter that I think it is just beyond me now. Whereas with SWW 19.2 there is a chance I can make it how I want and though this is an experiment, I think it is worth trying.


It sounds like there are many things in this piece that are currently bothering you.

Speed walls always mean that you are making things too complicated. What works at a slow tempo often will not work at a faster tempo. To go faster, you must simplify. However, knowing how to do that can be tricky.

I wonder how far beyond you it really is. What I heard sounded rather musical. The tempo works for me, but I certainly understand that if you feel you are hitting a speed wall, it will make it hard to focus on everything else. Have you tried playing faster, and allowing yourself to make more mistakes? Often, that can really free you up in ways you didn't know were possible. There will always be a fight between "better control" and "faster tempo". You can't have both.

I'd be curious to watch a video of you playing this. By watching your body language, it would be easier to tell what's going on in your mind.

Re: Finally accepting reality [Re: cmb13] #2881558
08/20/19 08:33 AM
08/20/19 08:33 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,012
Niagara Falls NY
ebonykawai Offline
1000 Post Club Member
ebonykawai  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,012
Niagara Falls NY
Originally Posted by cmb13
I’m near that point with Clair De Lune. I’ve covered the whole piece, in 3 months, but it’s nowhere near fluent. I think it’ll take 3 more months to put it together. However, I’ve spent so much time on it that I think it’s time to move on. My time will be more productive on easier material, and I can come back to it in the future. That said, I’ve learned so much from it, including most importantly multiple voices. Also 9/8 time. Etc.

So no shame, it’s all part of learning.


Agreed! I'm working on more difficult repertoire this summer and I have 2 more weeks to finish them before getting back to the level I'm supposed to be working at. Taking a stretch is great! It's a wonderful learnig experience and you get so much from it! I'll be happy to return to my level, though.


Lisa

Currently working on RCM 7 repertoire
Kawai UST-9, Yamaha CLP565GP, Kawai KDP110

"Sometimes I can only groan, and suffer, and pour out my despair at the piano!" - Frederic Chopin
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