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Steinway is now cheaper than Petrof? #2880563
08/17/19 11:01 AM
08/17/19 11:01 AM
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Louisiana, USA
swampwiz Offline OP
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OH MY!

Petrof 173 cm: $80K

https://pianopricepoint.com/petrof-p173-grand-piano/

Steinway M 170 cm: $74K

https://pianopricepoint.com/steinway-m-grand-piano/

Steinway O 180 cm: $83K

https://pianopricepoint.com/steinway-o-grand-piano/

Hypothetical Steinway 173 cm: $77K

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Re: Steinway is now cheaper than Petrof? [Re: swampwiz] #2880593
08/17/19 12:24 PM
08/17/19 12:24 PM
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Not really.

For starters, your prices are out of date and the latest MSRP prices are all higher.

But MUCH more importantly, you used the MSRP prices which are irrelevant. You should use the SMP prices together with the average discount from SMP(See the Piano Buyer for an explanation of this).

Here are the Spring 2019 SMP prices:
Steinway S=71,800, Steinway M=76,600, Steinway O=85,800, Petrof 173=58,488.

Besides the above price Steinways generally sell for 0-10% off SMP and Petrofs generally sell for 10-30% off SMP. So using 5% off for Steinway and 20% off for Petrof, even the smaller Steinway S at 68,210 is far more(47% more) expensive than the larger Petrof 173 at 46, 790.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 08/17/19 12:27 PM.
Re: Steinway is now cheaper than Petrof? [Re: swampwiz] #2880620
08/17/19 01:47 PM
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If one calculates the "hypothetical" Steinway at 173 cm like in your OP, i.e. slightly longer than an M, the theoretical cost would be about 78,300 x .95 = 74,385 which is about 59% more expensive than the similarly sized Petrof.

Re: Steinway is now cheaper than Petrof? [Re: pianoloverus] #2880634
08/17/19 02:57 PM
08/17/19 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
If one calculates the "hypothetical" Steinway at 173 cm like in your OP, i.e. slightly longer than an M, the theoretical cost would be about 78,300 x .95 = 74,385 which is about 59% more expensive than the similarly sized Petrof.

Would you suppose the Petrof marketing team is trying to show potential piano buyers a huge savings from MSRP? A killer markdown sales price?


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Re: Steinway is now cheaper than Petrof? [Re: j&j] #2880639
08/17/19 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by j&j
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
If one calculates the "hypothetical" Steinway at 173 cm like in your OP, i.e. slightly longer than an M, the theoretical cost would be about 78,300 x .95 = 74,385 which is about 59% more expensive than the similarly sized Petrof.

Would you suppose the Petrof marketing team is trying to show potential piano buyers a huge savings from MSRP? A killer markdown sales price?
Possibly. Or the dealers hope the buyer will bargain using the MSRP as the starting point and end up perhaps paying more than they would if they understand SMP or think they're getting a better deal than they actually are.

Re: Steinway is now cheaper than Petrof? [Re: swampwiz] #2880650
08/17/19 04:10 PM
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Where can someone interested in a new Petrof actually even try one?



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Re: Steinway is now cheaper than Petrof? [Re: Retsacnal] #2880653
08/17/19 04:18 PM
08/17/19 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Where can someone interested in a new Petrof actually even try one?



Petrof dealers
https://www.petrof.com/usa

None in the southern part of US

Re: Steinway is now cheaper than Petrof? [Re: swampwiz] #2880656
08/17/19 04:21 PM
08/17/19 04:21 PM
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In UK Steinway is most expensive. The others might have a higher SMRP but theyll discount heavily. Steinway doesn't ever discount here.

Re: Steinway is now cheaper than Petrof? [Re: swampwiz] #2880657
08/17/19 04:23 PM
08/17/19 04:23 PM
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San Mateo, CA
Kurtmen Offline
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smile In the real world of pianos, the Steinway dealer will sell the piano for about the full price. The Petrof dealer will be lucky to sell it for about 50% of the price.


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Re: Steinway is now cheaper than Petrof? [Re: dogperson] #2880670
08/17/19 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Where can someone interested in a new Petrof actually even try one?



Petrof dealers
https://www.petrof.com/usa


I can't help but think that list is out of date. It still lists Petrof USA as in the infamous RV camp in So Cal!

Someone here used to maintain that it was virtually impossible to get a new Petrof in the US, but there's probably been enough time for that to have changed somewhat.

Maybe a better question is: does anyone know of any new Petrof's in stock at a piano dealership? IoW, are there any dealers actually committed to the brand?



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Re: Steinway is now cheaper than Petrof? [Re: swampwiz] #2880674
08/17/19 04:59 PM
08/17/19 04:59 PM
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MSRP is just the high ceiling of a piano’s price, what counts is what it actually sells for in the end. For example, if a dealer allows 50% off MSRP, his ( higher rated..) pianos will still be cheaper to buyers than someone else’s pianos with lower MSRP.
So, it really depends. MSRP is just a starting point, no more, no less.
Shop wisely.
Norbert

Last edited by Norbert; 08/17/19 05:09 PM.

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Re: Steinway is now cheaper than Petrof? [Re: Kurtmen] #2880685
08/17/19 05:37 PM
08/17/19 05:37 PM
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Philadelphia/South Jersey
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Originally Posted by Kurtmen
smile In the real world of pianos, the Steinway dealer will sell the piano for about the full price. The Petrof dealer will be lucky to sell it for about 50% of the price.


Kurtmen,

While you have my respect, I need to disagree with you here.

In my region, and I suspect in many others, Steinway does not sell at retail. They did 25 years ago but not these days. Further, Petrof does certainly discount much more than Steinway but they could not sell for 50% of MSRP. Unless there is a way to sell a dollar for 95 cents and still stay in business.

My 2 cents,


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Re: Steinway is now cheaper than Petrof? [Re: Norbert] #2880691
08/17/19 06:04 PM
08/17/19 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Norbert
MSRP is just the high ceiling of a piano’s price, what counts is what it actually sells for in the end. For example, if a dealer allows 50% off MSRP, his ( higher rated..) pianos will still be cheaper to buyers than someone else’s pianos with lower MSRP.
So, it really depends. MSRP is just a starting point, no more, no less.
Shop wisely.
Norbert
MSRP shouldn't be the starting point
for the buyer and using it as a starting point is not shopping wisely. Even 50% of a very inflated MSRP could be a worse deal than 30% of SMP although some buyers will think they've gotten a smoking deal.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 08/17/19 06:07 PM.
Re: Steinway is now cheaper than Petrof? [Re: swampwiz] #2880728
08/17/19 08:42 PM
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I'm not one who revere's the PianoBuyer, but I just did a quick scan of the grands DB and ironically it looks like 30% off SMP is pretty darn close to 50% off MSRP.

Of course, this is essentially hypothetical conjecture since there doesn't seem to be a bona fide market presence.



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Re: Steinway is now cheaper than Petrof? [Re: swampwiz] #2880748
08/17/19 10:30 PM
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I struggled with how to word the above, and after re-reading it I want to say that I didn't mean to contradict Rich G. I don't know Petrofs to be selling for 50% off MSRP, or 30% off SMP. I just noted the irony of the numbers lining up that way. However, I have seen hints here that Petrofs can be had for steep discounts (assuming one can be found).

But that's not actually what I struggled with. Although "there doesn't seem to be a bona fide market presence" to me, I wondered if that was too strong a statement, so let me just say that there doesn't seem to be a substantial market presence.



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Re: Steinway is now cheaper than Petrof? [Re: swampwiz] #2880750
08/17/19 10:36 PM
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Also, I agree with Norbert's points, especially to "shop wisely." MSRP is just a number. SMP too is just a number, perhaps derived by formula, for the most part, but still leaving the buyer to haggle out a further "discount" of 10 to 30 percent, so not iron clad either.



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Re: Steinway is now cheaper than Petrof? [Re: Retsacnal] #2880808
08/18/19 06:23 AM
08/18/19 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Also, I agree with Norbert's points, especially to "shop wisely." MSRP is just a number. SMP too is just a number, perhaps derived by formula, for the most part, but still leaving the buyer to haggle out a further "discount" of 10 to 30 percent, so not iron clad either.
Not really.

MSRP is a random number and should be totally ignored. I think it's sometimes used by manufacturers or dealers to confuse or deceive the buyer. SMP is a significant number that helps one decide what a reasonable/good price for a piano is and thus bargain from a position of knowledge.

"Shop wisely" by is a trivially obvious statement.

Re: Steinway is now cheaper than Petrof? [Re: swampwiz] #2880820
08/18/19 06:56 AM
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(Continued from previous post)
I think the comment "For example, if a dealer allows 50% off MSRP, his ( higher rated..) pianos will still be cheaper to buyers than someone else’s pianos with lower MSRP." makes little sense.

Why would a piano with a higher MSRP necessarily be "higher rated"? One major point in the Piano Buyer is that since MSRP is completely arbitrary it cannot be used to judge a piano's quality or how good some discount is.

Without knowing the MSRP of both pianos and the discount on the second piano, there is no way to conclude that "his pianos will still be cheaper."

Last edited by pianoloverus; 08/18/19 06:58 AM.
Re: Steinway is now cheaper than Petrof? [Re: swampwiz] #2880853
08/18/19 09:14 AM
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JMHO but MSRP is a term used for many other industries and instruments. It’s an ideal. If the maker/manufacturer sells my retail business at a wholesale price, I should be able to display that product and sell that product for “full sticker” or Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price. When I read keyboard or other music industry literature magazines, after a full review of new product, they give MSRP and then “street price”. MSRP in vehicles is “sticker price” and at least with traditional car or truck sales no one pays full sticker. There’s always “the dance” - negotiating with the salesperson on what they give you for your trade in and what price you’ll pay for the new vehicle. You go back and forth, hem and haw, drink soda in the break area, the sales person talks to the “manager or finance guy” and comes back with a final price. Most folks I talk to hate the dance. They want to buy a car or SUV on the couch in their “puffy pants”. But I sure can’t. I have to see the truck up close and personal. I have to look it over for little dents or dings or scratches. Finally I absolutely have to test drive it. On city streets and highways. If it’s 4x4 I have to drive it off-road. Then and only then can I do the dance. For acoustic pianos I have to play it. Every key. My “advanced difficulty” repertoire. This is where I decide whether the MSRP is complete hallucinogenic fantasy and if 15 to 20% off SMP is a fair price for me. I think “the dance” is something that won’t leave the acoustic piano or the majority of vehicles sold anytime soon.


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Re: Steinway is now cheaper than Petrof? [Re: Kurtmen] #2880882
08/18/19 10:40 AM
08/18/19 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Kurtmen
smile In the real world of pianos, the Steinway dealer will sell the piano for about the full price. The Petrof dealer will be lucky to sell it for about 50% of the price.


50% off is quite a discount, but I would expect the discount on Petrofs to rise as it moved into its "new" pricing model, complete with the silly certificates of European origin.

Certain goods, often for historical reasons, have managed to achieve iconic status as "exclusive." People demand them in part because they are expensive and exclusive. But Petrof is betting the store on being able to JOIN that club by raising its price. This presumes there exists a large enough group of rich potential clients dazzled by the now higher list prices and befuddled by the swirl of hype about the brand's supposed European cachet.

This is what is sometimes called the Veblen Effect. By raising your price, people will want your product even more than in the past, just because of its exclusivity. One problem, of course, is that people really do have to believe that your particular product is suddenly the thing to have, just because it's more expensive. Unfortunately for Petrof, there is an existing club of makers that is probably fully soaking up the demand for this form of luxury good. In that case, Petrof won't be able to make its price increase stick, and you would see higher discounting off of list price.

If Kurtmen is correct that Petrof has had to exceed the usual 30% (+/-) discount in order to move its product, that is pretty strong evidence that consumers haven't begun to think of Petrof as a Rolex of pianos. Everybody (who is anybody) doesn't have to have one, seemingly.

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