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Re: Piano Concerto Grand Ranking [Re: NobleHouse] #2878758 08/12/19 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by NobleHouse
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by achoo42


And Beethoven did indeed write the Hammerklavier to see how far he could stretch the limits of the keyboard.


Well then that's Op. 106's weakness. The totality of the work, like Liszt's Transcendental Etudes, is imposing and mighty...and kind of hard to love.



I easily "love" them - both Op. 106 and Liszt's Transcendental Etudes.

I wonder how many outside the piano world do.

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Re: Piano Concerto Grand Ranking [Re: rmns2bseen] #2879366 08/13/19 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by NobleHouse
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by achoo42


And Beethoven did indeed write the Hammerklavier to see how far he could stretch the limits of the keyboard.


Well then that's Op. 106's weakness. The totality of the work, like Liszt's Transcendental Etudes, is imposing and mighty...and kind of hard to love.



I easily "love" them - both Op. 106 and Liszt's Transcendental Etudes.

I wonder how many outside the piano world do.


As if that is relevant- how many outside of the piano world love established masterpieces like Bach's Art of Fugue, Schumann's piano suites (Davidsbündlertänze, Kriesleriana, etc.) or Brahm's Handel Variations?

In fact, outside of the "piano world" there is little loved other than the tritest of Chopin, Liszt, and Beethoven.

Last edited by achoo42; 08/13/19 06:59 PM.

Schumann is the mann.
Re: Piano Concerto Grand Ranking [Re: achoo42] #2879374 08/13/19 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by achoo42


As if that is relevant- how many outside of the piano world love established masterpieces like Bach's Art of Fugue, Schumann's piano suites (Davidsbündlertänze, Kriesleriana, etc.) or Brahm's Handel Variations?

In fact, outside of the "piano world" there is little loved other than the tritest of Chopin, Liszt, and Beethoven.

Are you kidding? Do you know how many instrumentalists and ensembles are constantly trying to adapt The Art of Fugue and the Well Tempered Clavier? I think the difference between pieces that are somewhat "niche" and those that are not is quite relevant.

Re: Piano Concerto Grand Ranking [Re: rmns2bseen] #2879496 08/14/19 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by achoo42


As if that is relevant- how many outside of the piano world love established masterpieces like Bach's Art of Fugue, Schumann's piano suites (Davidsbündlertänze, Kriesleriana, etc.) or Brahm's Handel Variations?

In fact, outside of the "piano world" there is little loved other than the tritest of Chopin, Liszt, and Beethoven.

Are you kidding? Do you know how many instrumentalists and ensembles are constantly trying to adapt The Art of Fugue and the Well Tempered Clavier? I think the difference between pieces that are somewhat "niche" and those that are not is quite relevant.


Lol, so you meant the "musical world outside of piano"? And you base "loved" on how much they are adapted? This discussion has devolved into a complete mess. How can you have such certainty that the same people who adapt Bach do not have a love for music like the Hammerklavier and the Transcendental etudes? Absolutely no base in your assertions, sheesh. It's a very close-minded way of looking at people's tastes when you assume that only people who play piano or EXCLUSIVELY listen to piano music can enjoy piano music that was written to be difficult.

Last edited by achoo42; 08/14/19 08:55 AM.

Schumann is the mann.
Re: Piano Concerto Grand Ranking [Re: achoo42] #2879589 08/14/19 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by achoo42
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by achoo42


As if that is relevant- how many outside of the piano world love established masterpieces like Bach's Art of Fugue, Schumann's piano suites (Davidsbündlertänze, Kriesleriana, etc.) or Brahm's Handel Variations?

In fact, outside of the "piano world" there is little loved other than the tritest of Chopin, Liszt, and Beethoven.

Are you kidding? Do you know how many instrumentalists and ensembles are constantly trying to adapt The Art of Fugue and the Well Tempered Clavier? I think the difference between pieces that are somewhat "niche" and those that are not is quite relevant.


Lol, so you meant the "musical world outside of piano"? And you base "loved" on how much they are adapted? This discussion has devolved into a complete mess. How can you have such certainty that the same people who adapt Bach do not have a love for music like the Hammerklavier and the Transcendental etudes? Absolutely no base in your assertions, sheesh. It's a very close-minded way of looking at people's tastes when you assume that only people who play piano or EXCLUSIVELY listen to piano music can enjoy piano music that was written to be difficult.
Lol. What I stated was fairly obvious.

Re: Piano Concerto Grand Ranking [Re: rmns2bseen] #2879643 08/14/19 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by achoo42
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by achoo42


As if that is relevant- how many outside of the piano world love established masterpieces like Bach's Art of Fugue, Schumann's piano suites (Davidsbündlertänze, Kriesleriana, etc.) or Brahm's Handel Variations?

In fact, outside of the "piano world" there is little loved other than the tritest of Chopin, Liszt, and Beethoven.

Are you kidding? Do you know how many instrumentalists and ensembles are constantly trying to adapt The Art of Fugue and the Well Tempered Clavier? I think the difference between pieces that are somewhat "niche" and those that are not is quite relevant.


Lol, so you meant the "musical world outside of piano"? And you base "loved" on how much they are adapted? This discussion has devolved into a complete mess. How can you have such certainty that the same people who adapt Bach do not have a love for music like the Hammerklavier and the Transcendental etudes? Absolutely no base in your assertions, sheesh. It's a very close-minded way of looking at people's tastes when you assume that only people who play piano or EXCLUSIVELY listen to piano music can enjoy piano music that was written to be difficult.
Lol. What I stated was fairly obvious.


It would've been obvious had it not been so far-fetched. Have you done a survey of non-piano musicians on whether or not they enjoy the pieces in question? Because that's the kind of evidence you would require to bring credulity to your assumptions. People's tastes vary, you can't just apply a blanket assertion on the tastes of non-piano musicians just because you think difficult music is too piano-exclusive.


Schumann is the mann.
Re: Piano Concerto Grand Ranking [Re: achoo42] #2879795 08/15/19 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by achoo42

...
It would've been obvious had it not been so far-fetched. Have you done a survey of non-piano musicians on whether or not they enjoy the pieces in question? Because that's the kind of evidence you would require to bring credulity to your assumptions. People's tastes vary, you can't just apply a blanket assertion on the tastes of non-piano musicians just because you think difficult music is too piano-exclusive.

I didn't say anything about difficulty = "unloved". Even so I don't idolize difficulty for its own sake or brand something that might be somewhat "simpler" as "trite". You started this thread with about 6 different subjective blanket assumptions.

Re: Piano Concerto Grand Ranking [Re: rmns2bseen] #2880020 08/15/19 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by achoo42

...
It would've been obvious had it not been so far-fetched. Have you done a survey of non-piano musicians on whether or not they enjoy the pieces in question? Because that's the kind of evidence you would require to bring credulity to your assumptions. People's tastes vary, you can't just apply a blanket assertion on the tastes of non-piano musicians just because you think difficult music is too piano-exclusive.

I didn't say anything about difficulty = "unloved". Even so I don't idolize difficulty for its own sake or brand something that might be somewhat "simpler" as "trite". You started this thread with about 6 different subjective blanket assumptions.


All of that is a bit irrelevant. The fact remains that your conclusion about the Hammerklavier and Transcendental Etudes is based on flimsy reasoning and completely unfounded. My "subjective blanket assumptions", as you so inaptly put them, are made for the sake of helping students and teachers—they aren't opinions for the sake of opinion or disparagement, as yours were.

For the record, I didn't label "simpler" music as "trite" because they were "simple". I labeled them "trite" because they were trite. As in, overperformed. Notwithstanding how simple or complicated they may be.

Last edited by achoo42; 08/15/19 07:55 PM.

Schumann is the mann.
Re: Piano Concerto Grand Ranking [Re: achoo42] #2880372 08/16/19 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by achoo42


All of that is a bit irrelevant. The fact remains that your conclusion about the Hammerklavier and Transcendental Etudes is based on flimsy reasoning and completely unfounded. My "subjective blanket assumptions", as you so inaptly put them, are made for the sake of helping students and teachers—they aren't opinions for the sake of opinion or disparagement, as yours were.

For the record, I didn't label "simpler" music as "trite" because they were "simple". I labeled them "trite" because they were trite. As in, overperformed. Notwithstanding how simple or complicated they may be.

Oh, come on. Your rankings are absolutely subjective and reflect opinion. As for "difficulty", the precision required to play one of the 12 or so later Mozart concertos may be more difficult to achieve than the technique required to play the more "difficult" works in your list...just as in many ways it's more difficult to perform the Goldberg Variations with the requisite "purity" than the Hammerklavier. The problem is such lists are musically shallow.

Re: Piano Concerto Grand Ranking [Re: achoo42] #2880385 08/16/19 05:29 PM
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Come on, guys! Aren’t all rankings of difficulty subjective??? You will even find differences in assessments between professionals. Take any such list as being intended for discussion and not ‘gospel ’ your opinion may be very different......,, And move on.!!!!

Re: Piano Concerto Grand Ranking [Re: rmns2bseen] #2880780 08/18/19 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by achoo42


All of that is a bit irrelevant. The fact remains that your conclusion about the Hammerklavier and Transcendental Etudes is based on flimsy reasoning and completely unfounded. My "subjective blanket assumptions", as you so inaptly put them, are made for the sake of helping students and teachers—they aren't opinions for the sake of opinion or disparagement, as yours were.

For the record, I didn't label "simpler" music as "trite" because they were "simple". I labeled them "trite" because they were trite. As in, overperformed. Notwithstanding how simple or complicated they may be.

Oh, come on. Your rankings are absolutely subjective and reflect opinion. As for "difficulty", the precision required to play one of the 12 or so later Mozart concertos may be more difficult to achieve than the technique required to play the more "difficult" works in your list...just as in many ways it's more difficult to perform the Goldberg Variations with the requisite "purity" than the Hammerklavier. The problem is such lists are musically shallow.


Shallow, I agree, but useful. Musicality is beside the point.

You surely agree that the number of students who have the POTENTIAL to play a good Mozart concerto are way more numerous than the students who can play the Tchaikovsky. This is not to say that it is easier to interpret the Mozart well, it's just that it requires less mechanical ability to play the right notes.

What is the point of ranking the Mozart concerti high because they are hard to interpret? To tell people, "Oh, you have the mechanical ability to play it, but you probably shouldn't because musically it's too difficult"? That's nonsense. Rank them lower because they are mechanically easier, so people are more encouraged to try it and if they find out they do indeed have the touch for Mozart, then good for them. If it's ranked high then why would anybody bother in the first place?

So in this way, these lists are subjective but more applicable than you think. I do have an understanding of the technique that go into these concerti. There may be slight disagreements but they don't hurt the list's overall integrity.


Last edited by achoo42; 08/18/19 01:17 AM.

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Re: Piano Concerto Grand Ranking [Re: rmns2bseen] #2880782 08/18/19 01:18 AM
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Furthermore, Mozart also doesn't get to be more "difficult" just because hitting the right notes all the time is more important than, say, in a Liszt concerto. Every piece is meant to be played perfectly, it's just that a convincing Liszt performance can do with a few wrong notes here and there because they are often masked with pedal or large chords (not common in Mozart). Learning Mozart still requires less technical ability. The majority of technique required in Mozart (smooth scales, clean phrasing, consistent tone quality, etc.) are the basic backbone of what every good pianist should possess.

It is true that many technically gifted artists cannot play Mozart well (Hamelin, Lang Lang, et al.), but that has nothing to do with the difficulty of the piece itself because it's clear that these aforementioned artists have the POTENTIAL to play Mozart well—yet they don't. At least, not to the liking of critics. That's completely a problem with the artist and not a technical problem with the piece. I'm not a fan of Glen Gould's Appassionata, does that mean the Appassionata is too hard for him? Of course not, yet that is the logic you are applying here. With that same logic you could also unironically agree with Horowitz's little joke that Schumann's Träumerei is the most difficult piece ever written.

Also, you do realize that the technique required for the 4th movement of the Hammerklavier is akin to Bach on steroids, right? The Hammerklavier is the last piece you want to use when comparing the difficulty of getting a "pure" sound, which is absolutely a must in the work's 4th movement. Use something like Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsodies or something (although one could make a case that the Goldberg is mechanically more difficult than some of the HR) and I won't argue.


Last edited by achoo42; 08/18/19 01:28 AM.

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Re: Piano Concerto Grand Ranking [Re: achoo42] #2880786 08/18/19 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by achoo42

...
It is true that many technically gifted artists cannot play Mozart well (Hamelin, Lang Lang, et al.), but that has nothing to do with the difficulty of the piece itself because it's clear that these aforementioned artists have the POTENTIAL to play Mozart well—yet they don't. At least, not to the liking of critics. ...
Distinction without a difference. If you can toss off cascading octaves or even tenths and fly with those chromatic scales but still can't find it in you to give a good, clean performance of Bach or Mozart, then I'd say there's a void or blind spot in the technique. Anyone with two healthy hands has the POTENTIAL.

Originally Posted by achoo42
Also, you do realize that the technique required for the 4th movement of the Hammerklavier is akin to Bach on steroids, right?
*sigh* It's nothing of the kind.

Re: Piano Concerto Grand Ranking [Re: rmns2bseen] #2881090 08/18/19 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by achoo42

...
It is true that many technically gifted artists cannot play Mozart well (Hamelin, Lang Lang, et al.), but that has nothing to do with the difficulty of the piece itself because it's clear that these aforementioned artists have the POTENTIAL to play Mozart well—yet they don't. At least, not to the liking of critics. ...
Distinction without a difference. If you can toss off cascading octaves or even tenths and fly with those chromatic scales but still can't find it in you to give a good, clean performance of Bach or Mozart, then I'd say there's a void or blind spot in the technique. Anyone with two healthy hands has the POTENTIAL.

Originally Posted by achoo42
Also, you do realize that the technique required for the 4th movement of the Hammerklavier is akin to Bach on steroids, right?
*sigh* It's nothing of the kind.


I fail to see your logic here. A void in technique means that the person doesn't have the potential to play it...yet. What is a person doing playing Tchaikovsky concerti when they don't have the basics down? That's a problem with the artist, not with my list. Any serious pianist should perfect the basics before moving on to virtuosic technique.

And of course you twist the meaning of the word "potential" when you know exactly what I mean. Do you want me to use the word "ability", or "technique"? Please don't argue semantics here.

Furthermore, your implication that playing Bach counterpoint requires an entirely different set of skills than Beethoven counterpoint is completely baffling. Beethoven's counterpoint here is entirely derived from Bach, and even if they don't sound similar, what makes the Beethoven so difficult is that a lot of Bach must be applied into the touch and control of the sound. I've played the Goldberg, Italian Concerto, etc. and the similarities to me seem far more than differences.

Last edited by achoo42; 08/18/19 05:50 PM.

Schumann is the mann.
Re: Piano Concerto Grand Ranking [Re: achoo42] #2881094 08/18/19 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by achoo42


I fail to see your logic here. A void in technique means that you don't have the potential to play it...yet. Of course you twist my meaning of the word "potential" when you know exactly what I mean. Do you want me to use the word "ability", or "technique"? Please don't argue semantics here.
A "void in technique" doesn't mean you don't have the *capability* to do such and such. It means you haven't nailed that facet down. As I said, anyone with two healthy hands has the capability.

Originally Posted by achoo42
And your implication that playing Bach counterpoint requires an entirely different set of skills than Beethoven counterpoint is completely baffling. Beethoven's counterpoint here is entirely derived from Bach, ...
No. If the counterpoint here were entirely derived from Bach, the last movement would be a three-voice fugue. It isn't, in its entirety. It is a "free form" fugue that is entirely Beethoven but with something of a Bachian (and Handelian) inspiration.

Re: Piano Concerto Grand Ranking [Re: rmns2bseen] #2881115 08/18/19 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by achoo42


I fail to see your logic here. A void in technique means that you don't have the potential to play it...yet. Of course you twist my meaning of the word "potential" when you know exactly what I mean. Do you want me to use the word "ability", or "technique"? Please don't argue semantics here.
A "void in technique" doesn't mean you don't have the *capability* to do such and such. It means you haven't nailed that facet down. As I said, anyone with two healthy hands has the capability.

Originally Posted by achoo42
And your implication that playing Bach counterpoint requires an entirely different set of skills than Beethoven counterpoint is completely baffling. Beethoven's counterpoint here is entirely derived from Bach, ...
No. If the counterpoint here were entirely derived from Bach, the last movement would be a three-voice fugue. It isn't, in its entirety. It is a "free form" fugue that is entirely Beethoven but with something of a Bachian (and Handelian) inspiration.


I am completely aware of that. I don't see why it makes the skillset "completely different", in your words. Have you played both?

Quasi-fugues or fughettas as seen in Liszt, Alkan, Schumann etc. are indeed very differently played but Beethoven...not so much. I suppose you could have a different ideal as to the sound of the Beethoven.

Last edited by achoo42; 08/18/19 07:28 PM.

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Re: Piano Concerto Grand Ranking [Re: achoo42] #2881119 08/18/19 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by achoo42


I am completely aware of that. I don't see why it makes the skillset "completely different", in your words. Have you played both?

Quasi-fugues or fughettas as seen in Liszt, Alkan, Schumann etc. are indeed very differently played but Beethoven...not so much. I suppose you could have a different ideal as to the sound of the Beethoven.

Well I would hope you are completely aware of it. And yes there are passages in other works that are quite reminiscent of Bach, particularly in the last movement of LvB's Op. 101. And yes I've played both. The big difference between them is there is absolutely NO hiding in Bach. None. The demands for precision I think are unparalleled. And with that I'm done with the topic. Best wishes.

Re: Piano Concerto Grand Ranking [Re: rmns2bseen] #2881145 08/18/19 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by achoo42


I am completely aware of that. I don't see why it makes the skillset "completely different", in your words. Have you played both?

Quasi-fugues or fughettas as seen in Liszt, Alkan, Schumann etc. are indeed very differently played but Beethoven...not so much. I suppose you could have a different ideal as to the sound of the Beethoven.

Well I would hope you are completely aware of it. And yes there are passages in other works that are quite reminiscent of Bach, particularly in the last movement of LvB's Op. 101. And yes I've played both. The big difference between them is there is absolutely NO hiding in Bach. None. The demands for precision I think are unparalleled. And with that I'm done with the topic. Best wishes.


Fair enough. There's no hiding in Mozart or Bach but that doesn't make them easier to play, just easier to perform...I think we can both agree that every composer meant to have their pieces played with all the notes intact.


Schumann is the mann.
Re: Piano Concerto Grand Ranking [Re: achoo42] #2881156 08/18/19 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by achoo42


Fair enough. There's no hiding in Mozart or Bach but that doesn't make them easier to play, just easier to perform...I think we can both agree that every composer meant to have their pieces played with all the notes intact.
Of course they probably "meant to" - although I don't think Beethoven or even Liszt were quite as hung up on competition-pianist "perfection" as we are. The point is that in later music a flub can be more effectively hidden behind the sustain pedal or a lot of other noise going on. In Bach or Mozart that same kind of flub is a destroyer. And now I really am done. Take care.

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