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A couple of comments regarding Kawai and Yamaha DP #2879555
08/14/19 12:59 PM
08/14/19 12:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 9
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GNkyrios Offline OP
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GNkyrios  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 9
For starters hello and grettings from Chile. I had read the forum for some time now, and decided to make an account, there are many interesting topics, and much knowledge you dont find anywhere else.

First i would like to comment a problem i had with my Kawai CN37, wich i think it was an electrical issue. First i noticed the B3 key didnt make a sound after pressed too hard for a second or more, i thought it was some contact problem, i tried using a graphite pencil like some people suggested, but made it worse, some of the other keys i applied also started to have this problem. So i cleaned everything with alcohol, and everything worked fine (even the B3). Couple of weeks passed and i noticed that the middle pedal wasnt working (i rarely use it since im a begginner), and trying to reconect it, press it hard, and all the things i could think of finnaly it worked for some time, then it didnt.

Now after a while i noticed this behaviour, if the pedal worked, i had the key issue, and if the key worked, the pedal wouldnt, its as weird as it sound. So im guessing it is some electrical problem. And on top of that, the previous owner of this DP told me later that it had some key issue after a month or so of bought (wich i came to understand it can be common on DPs), they sent it to the official technical service that the official distributor has on my country. And maybe it was that they butchered it, or some issue on the transport, i dont know, but it had the wood bar on top of the keys (the one with the red felt) broken at one side so it was loose (i fixed this at least), but the side of the board that had the key with the issue had a little crack on the PCB, so i was pretty disturbed about that, im guessing the previous owner had knowledge of at least the key problem but choose not to tell me, but i guess he didnt knew that they left it in this poorly state when they attempted to fix it.

So i ended up selling it, for a decent price, since the guy who bought it could take it to the tech service, and sadly i didnt had that option (service is ony on the capital city and you have to take it yourself), else i would had fixed it before selling it.

I just wanted to share this to look for an opinion on the problem my CN37 had, i study electric engieneer so i went ahead and dissasembly it myself to attempt to fix it, with no luck, im guessing replacing a board or maybe just the keys rubber could had fixed it.

So insted of buying another CN37, new this time, i invested on a CA 78, big leap for me on investment but i just went for it, i knew i was going to save up some money and would want to get a better one in a year or so, i wanted the CA 58, but they only bring the CN27, 37, then the CA78, and nothing else.

Another comment about the CN37, supposedly it has better features for resonnance, and more speakers, but for some reason, at certain times, i find the 2 speaker of the CN27 sounds better, on paper having 4 speakers is better, but considering the bottom ones are bigger, and the top are smaller, and dividing the sound like this, maybe you percieve the sound differently with this configuration, sometimes i find the CN27 and my old CN24 to sound better with just 2 speakers.


Now for the Yamaha part of this post, i traveled 2 hours to try some acoustic pianos and Yamaha DP's since theres none on my city, i tried a CLP 645, after going to another store to try a CN37(new) and the CA78 wich i thought it was similar but better on everything compared to the CN37, the action was the best i had felt in any DP(not that we have many models around here anyways). So to my surprise, i didnt liked the Yamaha, and i dont know why, i had an idea of what i was going to feel and hear, but i was dissapointed. Yes the action was good, similar or a bit better than the RHIII on the CN37, but i once read that kawai for the action and yamaha for the sound. But for my surprise i didnt found the sound that good, i recognized the tone similar to the Yamaha Grand i tried on the acoustic pianos store, i also was expecting something of the bosendorfer, but i found both a little timid. I blamed it on the sound system, since even when the 645 is at the same price range or higher than the CN37 it only has 2 speakers. Maybe it was the room acoustic, i dont know, maybe i grew fond of the SK-EX sound, and just hearing it from the new engine on the CA78 and its superior sound system, the Yamaha wasnt as good on comparison. My whole idea was switching to Yamaha since i had some issues with my Kawai, but i will continue with this brand.

Also i had the idea like i had read before about these DP's of "built like a tank" but after having dissasembled it i find them more fragile now(i even had to get used to play it normally fearing another key would break), for example the inverted vertical placement of the pcb and rubbers fixed with screws on plastic for the action, i would expect this for a cheap plastic action, or maybe even the entry level DP's, but for a ~$2800 DP i expected a bit more.

Sorry the lenghty post, but i wanted to comment about various topics from some time. Now im awaiting for my local store to send the CA 78 from their storage(ended up paying about $3430 for it, the full price was $4285 but i managed to get a 20% disccount even when it wasnt any at this time), but i really liked the Grand Feel II action, its smooth as butter, it made everything i play easier, and the longer pivot also makes easier to play high on the keys, what i didnt liked even before trying it, was the infamous touchscreen, i rather have the control similar to the CN37, im not fond of the UI, even more reading all the complaints here, but i always knew that a basic input system is more consistent, than a input based on basically a tablet that will degrade with time like all the mobile devices we are used to, but well a small price to pay for a really nice Piano.

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Re: A couple of comments regarding Kawai and Yamaha DP [Re: GNkyrios] #2879559
08/14/19 01:18 PM
08/14/19 01:18 PM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 9
G
GNkyrios Offline OP
Junior Member
GNkyrios  Offline OP
Junior Member
G

Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 9
[img]https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-NKGSI__zjcGGL25g50_RDVFngAB8YhQ[/img]
picture of the broken part

[img]https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-S5skFmE9p8GoxQzej2PENbZqJqh1qZp[/img]
this is the original piece

[img]https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-YU_KQx8K3LM3ZV6MRz1s5t_27VfvSBv[/img]
i only had my tools and some wood so i managed this to fix it.

[img]https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-RCBxzHuE_Y1YxfUVUuXMdMyPHgPvOjA[/img]
here you can see the crack on the PCB wich is on the underside, i applied some masking tape to make it stronger and prevent it from bending and maybe breaking in the future.

Re: A couple of comments regarding Kawai and Yamaha DP [Re: GNkyrios] #2879584
08/14/19 03:45 PM
08/14/19 03:45 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 382
Sao Paul, Brazil
E
EVC2017 Offline
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EVC2017  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 382
Sao Paul, Brazil
Originally Posted by GNkyrios
here you can see the crack on the PCB wich is on the underside, i applied some masking tape to make it stronger and prevent it from bending and maybe breaking in the future.


IMO a huge shame on Kawai for using phenolic PCB in what is supposed to be a world class instrument. For a consumer product that must be as cheap as possible, that makes sense but not for a DP, not for a intermediate to advanced level one.


Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Presonus Eris E5 monitors, Sennheiser HD598SR phones.
Re: A couple of comments regarding Kawai and Yamaha DP [Re: GNkyrios] #2879598
08/14/19 04:36 PM
08/14/19 04:36 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,721
Northern England.
peterws Offline
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peterws  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,721
Northern England.
Have to admit visits to the DP shop, despite the wide range of stuff on view, never seem to achieve a result except for one thing.
I come away very glad to have what I have. I'd be a fool to depart from it until it stops working.

Hope you find satisfaction with your purchase. My own experience tells me you grow to love your instrument, and end up comparing everything else unfavourably, no matter how high the price!


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Re: A couple of comments regarding Kawai and Yamaha DP [Re: EVC2017] #2879604
08/14/19 04:59 PM
08/14/19 04:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,947
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
8000 Post Club Member
MacMacMac  Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,947
Raleigh, North Carolina
Phenolic PCBs? In the 21st century? I completely doubted you ... until I saw that last photo posted by GNkyrios. Unbelievable ... but now I believe you.

I had seriously considered buying a Novus when I retire ... though I was also consdering the N1X, which I've not yet tried. But now I think my mind is made up.

There's no chance I'll buy the Kawai. The negatives are piling up and up and up and up. It's disgusting.
Originally Posted by EVC2017
IMO a huge shame on Kawai for using phenolic PCB in what is supposed to be a world class instrument. For a consumer product that must be as cheap as possible, that makes sense but not for a DP, not for a intermediate to advanced level one.

Re: A couple of comments regarding Kawai and Yamaha DP [Re: GNkyrios] #2879609
08/14/19 05:32 PM
08/14/19 05:32 PM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 9
G
GNkyrios Offline OP
Junior Member
GNkyrios  Offline OP
Junior Member
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Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 9
At one time i had the CN37 and CN24 on my home(while i sold the CN24), but i didnt had the chance to open up the CN24, i had the idea that i would find the same PCB since i dont believe there has been much changes since that model, the RH3 is just a revision of the RH2 with counterweights, but the PCB and rubbers may be the same since the triple sensor introduction. Its a shame but the indrustry keeps pushing the reduction of costs, for their own benefit, but also to offer products at better prices, i mean yeah they could use premiun materials on everything, even real wood for the cabinets, but a $3000 piano would rise up to maybe $4000 and that is also harmful to the consumers, these are the times we live on.

Still i have a high respect for Kawai, what i like the most is that they are very transparent with the features of their pianos, they show you alot of the internals, and even the key action with details, its much more difficult to find information on other brands about their technologies, and that makes me trust them more.

Re: A couple of comments regarding Kawai and Yamaha DP [Re: GNkyrios] #2879610
08/14/19 05:33 PM
08/14/19 05:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 264
M
magicpiano Offline
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magicpiano  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 264
@GNkyrios:
If I understand correctly, you bought an used digital piano and it was already damaged somehow by the previous owner or from a clumsy repair intervention (or maybe it was damaged during the transport). You have been unfortunate, it's not that Kawai quality is bad. We don't know if that bending on the PCB was already there from the start, or it's because the screw was screwed too hard by the repairer man. Anyway it's clear to me that your DP hasn't been treated too well before you bought it, and maybe the previous owner wanted just to get rid of the semi-damaged product as soon as possible.

I too have a CN37 and from what I can see they are pretty sturdy objects, and the RH3 keyboard is one of the best in its category. It's used in the Nord Grand digital piano too.

About the internal speakers I agree that they don't sound very good. But AFAIK that's the case with all the DP in this price range. It's not a problem of 2 or 4, it's just that they lack some real tweeters, so the sound is very midrangey and lacks clarity. With good headphones is completely different.

Re: A couple of comments regarding Kawai and Yamaha DP [Re: MacMacMac] #2879614
08/14/19 05:41 PM
08/14/19 05:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 382
Sao Paul, Brazil
E
EVC2017 Offline
Full Member
EVC2017  Offline
Full Member
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Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 382
Sao Paul, Brazil
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Phenolic PCBs? In the 21st century? I completely doubted you ... until I saw that last photo posted by GNkyrios. Unbelievable ... but now I believe you.


To make it clear, it is the PCBs that hold the contacts that are phenolic.

See this post of mine. on my ES8.

Actually, the board that has the audio amplifier is also phenolic.

Saving a few bucks on a DP of this category is a shame. Unfortunately I doubt Kawai is alone.

Last edited by EVC2017; 08/14/19 05:42 PM.

Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Presonus Eris E5 monitors, Sennheiser HD598SR phones.
Re: A couple of comments regarding Kawai and Yamaha DP [Re: GNkyrios] #2879622
08/14/19 06:20 PM
08/14/19 06:20 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,289
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Gombessa Offline
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Gombessa  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,289
Huh, whatever happened to not paying attention to specs, and buying the instrument that sounds and feels the best to you? smile


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: A couple of comments regarding Kawai and Yamaha DP [Re: Gombessa] #2879623
08/14/19 06:23 PM
08/14/19 06:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 5,525
Tyrone Slothrop Offline
Tyrone Slothrop  Offline

5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 5,525
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Huh, whatever happened to not paying attention to specs, and buying the instrument that sounds and feels the best to you? smile

...except if that instrument uses phenolic boards, lead paint, asbestos, or fluoridated water.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

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Re: A couple of comments regarding Kawai and Yamaha DP [Re: GNkyrios] #2879630
08/14/19 07:18 PM
08/14/19 07:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,015
Kitsap County, WA
Chrispy Offline
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Chrispy  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,015
Kitsap County, WA
The color gives it away for sure, that is kind of surprising to see in something that's not a cheap kitchen appliance. From what I can tell, though I don't have close ups, the N1X is all fiberglass boards, they appear translucent to me. I could be wrong, though, I don't have any real close ups.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2846570/inside-yamaha-n1x.html


𝒀𝒂𝒎𝒂𝒉𝒂 𝑨𝒗𝒂𝒏𝒕 𝑮𝒓𝒂𝒏𝒅 𝑵1𝑿
Re: A couple of comments regarding Kawai and Yamaha DP [Re: GNkyrios] #2879635
08/14/19 07:48 PM
08/14/19 07:48 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,947
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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MacMacMac  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,947
Raleigh, North Carolina
Do they even use fiberglass anymore? Aren't they mostly polyimide these days?

Re: A couple of comments regarding Kawai and Yamaha DP [Re: GNkyrios] #2879639
08/14/19 08:01 PM
08/14/19 08:01 PM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 9
East Gippsland, Australia
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Deltajockey Offline
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Deltajockey  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2019
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East Gippsland, Australia
It's not uncommon for phenolic to still be used in low component, low stress situations. CPU and Interface boards are always fibreglass, even in the relatively modest equipment. The Korg Kronos uses phenolic boards on it's diode matrix array mounted along the keybed frame, and it's not considered a cheapy board.
I think context and appropriate design is important. How much self adhesive and foam tape do you also find in keyboards serving a specific purpose, or cars for that matter! And how many devices have failed or have shortened life because of phenolic boards being used in an appropriate way?

Last edited by Deltajockey; 08/14/19 08:03 PM.
Re: A couple of comments regarding Kawai and Yamaha DP [Re: GNkyrios] #2879640
08/14/19 08:28 PM
08/14/19 08:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,947
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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MacMacMac  Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,947
Raleigh, North Carolina
Phenolic is crap.
It's brittle. So it's no surprise that GNkyrios had troubles.
Phenolic is crap.

Re: A couple of comments regarding Kawai and Yamaha DP [Re: Deltajockey] #2879647
08/14/19 09:24 PM
08/14/19 09:24 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 905
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Bosendorff Offline
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 905
Originally Posted by Deltajockey
It's not uncommon for phenolic to still be used in low component, low stress situations. CPU and Interface boards are always fibreglass, even in the relatively modest equipment. The Korg Kronos uses phenolic boards on it's diode matrix array mounted along the keybed frame, and it's not considered a cheapy board.
I think context and appropriate design is important.

You are spot on. The OP pics show obvious signs of abuse and/or accident and/or serious lack of QC at factory which led to the wooden part being broken and obviously problems to other components, including damaged PCB, etc. From the pics, one can also see that the design to hold the contact PCBs doesn't look very solid - short tabs of plastic on one end and a few screws on the other end. This means the vibrations/shocks coming from above when playing hard on the keys are applied to very small surfaces/areas. By comparison, in the Korg Kronos two long L-shaped steel bars are applied and screwed across the entire length of the PCBs and just under the contacts, which means a much larger area/surface of support. Also, the opposite side of those L-bars are fit with a shock-absorbent material which rests directly on the bottom wooden panel. Chances of damage are therefore minimal. So indeed, as you mention, a good design can make a big difference in reliability.


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