Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
46 registered members (Animisha, 5penguins, BeeZee4, akc42, AZNpiano, Avalanch, Contraalto64, Bett, 10 invisible), 2,889 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Straight 5th fingers #2879311
08/13/19 05:44 PM
08/13/19 05:44 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 10
London, United Kingdom
Ilay Offline OP
Junior Member
Ilay  Offline OP
Junior Member

Joined: May 2019
Posts: 10
London, United Kingdom
Hi there,

I'm an adult beginner playing for about 3.5 months and I can't solve flying / straightening 5th finger problems.

Been researching it for about a month now. Read about rotation / isolated fingers / tension topics and tried various pieces of advice, but still have this problem.

Recording of my problem

It straightens the most and "flies" (a little) when I play scales and play black key with my 4th fingers (LH ascending || RH descending)

Any advice?

Thanks.


My piano journey started on April 20, 2019. Now I see how empty my life was.
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Straight 5th fingers [Re: Ilay] #2879316
08/13/19 06:02 PM
08/13/19 06:02 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,146
M
Moo :) Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Moo :)  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,146
I do this smile. I actually only noticed when I started to record myself. I have been taught about technique by many different teachers over the years and whilst many many things were mentioned and some still are this was never mentioned. I therefore have concluded it is not a problem. Why is it a problem ? Unless your teacher thinks it is a problem and you have a reason from them as to why it is a problem I would not worry about it. Please check with your teacher. You appear to be playing very well. We have some very bizarre advice online so please check with your teacher rather than pianoworldforum. sorry people :0. good luck !

Re: Straight 5th fingers [Re: Moo :)] #2879321
08/13/19 06:13 PM
08/13/19 06:13 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 10
London, United Kingdom
Ilay Offline OP
Junior Member
Ilay  Offline OP
Junior Member

Joined: May 2019
Posts: 10
London, United Kingdom
Thanks!
Well it does make sense and I will check with the teacher later (shes away), but watching videos of different level pianists play, I noticed only beginner / early intermediate have it. So I'd rather fix it earlier.


My piano journey started on April 20, 2019. Now I see how empty my life was.
Re: Straight 5th fingers [Re: Ilay] #2879323
08/13/19 06:21 PM
08/13/19 06:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,146
M
Moo :) Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Moo :)  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,146
Am I a beginner / early intermediate ? I dont think so now. Similarly I have seen a lot of 'advanced' pianist dancing around and doing all sorts of unnecessary movements in the piano. I also noticed there were many difference in their techniques. I have also had many threads with strangers advising on technique online. Some of them here know what they are talking about and some do not. If you have a teacher go to them.

Re: Straight 5th fingers [Re: Ilay] #2879333
08/13/19 06:45 PM
08/13/19 06:45 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,603
New York City
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,603
New York City
I didn't see anything particularly serious or extreme in the video.

Re: Straight 5th fingers [Re: Ilay] #2879392
08/13/19 09:43 PM
08/13/19 09:43 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 436
J
John305 Offline
Full Member
John305  Offline
Full Member
J

Joined: May 2018
Posts: 436
It doesn’t seem like a problem to me but at the beginning of your video your legs are moving so much it looks like you’re playing an old fashioned player piano.


It’s never too late to be what you might have been. -George Eliot
Re: Straight 5th fingers [Re: John305] #2879398
08/13/19 10:51 PM
08/13/19 10:51 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 10
London, United Kingdom
Ilay Offline OP
Junior Member
Ilay  Offline OP
Junior Member

Joined: May 2019
Posts: 10
London, United Kingdom
I noticed it as well. It's a little subconscious dance smile


My piano journey started on April 20, 2019. Now I see how empty my life was.
Re: Straight 5th fingers [Re: pianoloverus] #2879448
08/14/19 05:18 AM
08/14/19 05:18 AM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,209
Moscow, Russia
I
Iaroslav Vasiliev Online content
1000 Post Club Member
Iaroslav Vasiliev  Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
I

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,209
Moscow, Russia
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I didn't see anything particularly serious or extreme in the video.

+1, I agree. Don't hurry. Training of 5th finger takes time. It will become more relaxed and dexterous as you play more with it.

Re: Straight 5th fingers [Re: Ilay] #2879482
08/14/19 08:54 AM
08/14/19 08:54 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 12,165
B
bennevis Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
bennevis  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 12,165
I remember when I was a ten-year-old kid starting lessons.

All my non-playing fingers stuck out like spikes even just playing one note (I only discovered that when I saw a photo my uncle took of me playing Twinkle, Twinkle on his piano - which he only showed to me when I visited him in Sydney a few years ago: he'd emigrated as I was growing up on the other side of the world). Gradually - perhaps within a year - things 'settled down' as I gained better control of my individual fingers. However long it took, my teacher certainly never made an issue of it, though I did remember her mentioning that I could try playing with more curved fingers, about the time when I started on Mozart's kiddie pieces. (Presumably, up till then, I was playing with straight fingers.)

Of course, being a kid, it was my mission not to worry about these things. I left the worrying to my teacher. My job was just to do what I was told cool. (It got me to where I am now, a mediocre advanced pianist wink ).

In other words, my advice is - you're at the beginning stage. You obviously have a good teacher. Finger control develops very slowly (over years). Rome wasn't built in a day. Patience is key, not worrying. Worrying about "tension" or "rotation" causes more tension......therefore listen to your teacher and don't jump the gun by looking up all sorts of stuff on the internet, or comparing yourself with others.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Straight 5th fingers [Re: Ilay] #2879486
08/14/19 09:10 AM
08/14/19 09:10 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,140
Dublin
johnstaf Online crying
2000 Post Club Member
johnstaf  Online Crying
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,140
Dublin
There isn't anything wrong with your fifth finger. Sometimes people have problems that might give them trouble later on, but you don't. The way you use your hands is remarkably good for the amount of time you've been playing. Maybe you could work on the dancing legs, as that could be a difficult habit to break later on.

Re: Straight 5th fingers [Re: Ilay] #2879492
08/14/19 09:25 AM
08/14/19 09:25 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 6,154
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content

6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 6,154
Originally Posted by Ilay
Hi there,

I'm an adult beginner playing for about 3.5 months and I can't solve flying / straightening 5th finger problems.

Been researching it for about a month now. Read about rotation / isolated fingers / tension topics and tried various pieces of advice, but still have this problem.

Recording of my problem

It straightens the most and "flies" (a little) when I play scales and play black key with my 4th fingers (LH ascending || RH descending)

Any advice?

Thanks.

Wow. After 18 months of piano, I can only wish that I could have pinkies that are as well behaved as yours! frown


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Straight 5th fingers [Re: Ilay] #2879572
08/14/19 02:27 PM
08/14/19 02:27 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 242
Connecticut, USA
MichaelJK Offline

Full Member
MichaelJK  Offline

Full Member

Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 242
Connecticut, USA
I can see the issue you are referring to. Yes, it's indicative of a problem. No, it won't necessarily go away with more experience. I had that kind of problem for years and years. (Let me emphasize that this sort of thing is extremely common...you're not doing anything wrong...it is a normal part of learning...but it may take time to learn it).

I presume that the problem sticks out to you not because of how it looks, but rather because of how it feels. Specifically, I imagine that it bothers you that the 5th finger seems to have a mind of its own, and that you probably feel some kind of lack of control over your hands. Am I correct?

Now, I'm going to tell you something that might be frustrating. This problem does not exist in isolation. It's not just that "you're doing something wrong with your 5th finger". You should understand that every part in the body is connected to every other part. And, it's all connected to your brain. This is actually good news, because it means that as you improve the functioning of any part of it, the whole rest of it will improve along with it.

However, it's often the case that trying to fix problems in isolation simply makes them worse. The stuff you're reading about (rotation/isolated fingers/tension) is not necessarily wrong, but you should be aware that just knowing about something like that intellectually will not guarantee that your body understands it on a deep level. Try to become aware of your body as a whole. This will make everything work better for you.

I'm curious about your legs, too. When I watched the video, I assumed it was something you were doing deliberately, maybe as an exercise from your teacher. However, after reading your comment, I'm now wondering if you were aware of them while you were playing. If you weren't, then that is great news, because that's a good opportunity to notice how the parts of the body are working together.

To summarize:

- Do not concern yourself with how your hands look, but rather how they feel on the inside.
- Try to be aware of your whole body at once, whenever possible.
- You need to train your body, not just your intellect.

Last edited by MichaelJK; 08/14/19 02:29 PM.
Re: Straight 5th fingers [Re: johnstaf] #2880340
08/16/19 04:40 PM
08/16/19 04:40 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 10
London, United Kingdom
Ilay Offline OP
Junior Member
Ilay  Offline OP
Junior Member

Joined: May 2019
Posts: 10
London, United Kingdom
Thank you, everyone, for sharing your advice.

To answer your questions:

1) Dancing legs part: no, I don't do it deliberately. I guess I just really like this minuet? Happened maybe 2-3 times in this 3.5 months.
2) About looks vs feels. It actually looks of it what bothers me. Looks so unnatural. Everything is ok with feel but when I concentrate on pinky while playing I feel how tense it is when it straightens like this.
3) Quite often I accumulate a lot of tension in my shoulders (lifting them up). The teacher than shakes me to make me aware of this tension.

To sum up:
I don't particularly see this a huge problem. But as I mentioned, I would rather solve it earlier than later when everything becomes automatic. I had a similar situation where my joints were collapsing on every keypress in my first weeks. I still notice it time to time, but mainly when I have to switch fingers while pressing the key or in situations like in measure 5 in Beethoven's Sonata in C sharp minor op.27 no.2 1st movement -> when right-hand goes Mi Sol Do and while holding Do with 4th thumb goes to play Sol, 4th finger joint collapses because then thumb travels shorter distance I guess? At least that's how I feel it.

Last edited by Ilay; 08/16/19 04:40 PM.

My piano journey started on April 20, 2019. Now I see how empty my life was.
Re: Straight 5th fingers [Re: Ilay] #2880350
08/16/19 05:05 PM
08/16/19 05:05 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 242
Connecticut, USA
MichaelJK Offline

Full Member
MichaelJK  Offline

Full Member

Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 242
Connecticut, USA
Originally Posted by Ilay

2) About looks vs feels. It actually looks of it what bothers me. Looks so unnatural. Everything is ok with feel but when I concentrate on pinky while playing I feel how tense it is when it straightens like this.


Why do you say everything is ok with feel, if you can feel how tense it is when you concentrate on it?

Quote

To sum up:
I don't particularly see this a huge problem.


I don't think it's a huge problem, either. I'm saying that because you're a beginner and you're still trying to figure things out. So yeah, have fun with it!

Quote

I had a similar situation where my joints were collapsing on every keypress in my first weeks. I still notice it time to time, but mainly when I have to switch fingers while pressing the key or in situations like in measure 5 in Beethoven's Sonata in C sharp minor op.27 no.2 1st movement -> when right-hand goes Mi Sol Do and while holding Do with 4th thumb goes to play Sol, 4th finger joint collapses because then thumb travels shorter distance I guess? At least that's how I feel it.


I looked at the measure you are referring to, and I have two questions:

1) Why are you holding the 4th finger?
2) Why is it a problem that the 4th finger joint collapses? Mine does too. Especially because it's playing on a black key.

Re: Straight 5th fingers [Re: MichaelJK] #2880360
08/16/19 05:19 PM
08/16/19 05:19 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 10
London, United Kingdom
Ilay Offline OP
Junior Member
Ilay  Offline OP
Junior Member

Joined: May 2019
Posts: 10
London, United Kingdom
Originally Posted by MichaelJK

Why do you say everything is ok with feel, if you can feel how tense it is when you concentrate on it?


I guess because so far it didn't cause me any troubles.

Originally Posted by MichaelJK

Why are you holding the 4th finger?

Legato I guess. I didn't mean I hold it for longer than it should be played, but this fraction of time before thumb plays Sol.

Originally Posted by MichaelJK

Why is it a problem that the 4th finger joint collapses? Mine does too. Especially because it's playing on a black key.

I think because if joints collapse, it gives you less control over voicing. From the physics point of view if joint collapses at the moment you play a key

I think I'm just overthinking all of it

Last edited by Ilay; 08/16/19 05:19 PM.

My piano journey started on April 20, 2019. Now I see how empty my life was.

Moderated by  BB Player 

Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
PianoSupplies.com is Piano World's Online Store
Please visit our store today.
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Question about front lid on my Kawai grand
by Deltajockey. 09/16/19 03:13 AM
How Many Digitals Get This Correct
by Jonky Ponky. 09/16/19 12:17 AM
Pianodisc midi retrofit
by Sweelinck. 09/15/19 11:30 PM
Brass lick
by fatar760. 09/15/19 05:59 PM
Was Rachmaninov really a "triple threat"?
by pianoloverus. 09/15/19 05:31 PM
What's Hot!!
Our August Newsletter is Out!
------------------
Mason & Hamlin Piano Factory Tour!

-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics194,060
Posts2,869,852
Members94,422
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1