2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
73 members (Bluthendorfer, Beemer, AWilley, 36251, Animisha, accordeur, 15 invisible), 718 guests, and 546 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Stop the madness! :)
#2875785 08/03/19 05:21 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 66
G
GWILLY Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
G
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 66
Why don't we have a VPC 2 with full controller capabilities? Why don't we have a Korg Kronos Rack. Why didn't Roland put amazing sounds in, and bloody well support (many products also) the Fantom G? And wtf is up with the Ram in keyboards and notebooks?

We should crowd fund a new company for keyboardists. smile Show of hands? smile

Ps.. Pianoteq on Tablets.. :P

Last edited by GWILLY; 08/03/19 05:22 PM.
(ad)
Sweetwater Gifts That Rock
Re: Stop the madness! :)
GWILLY #2875788 08/03/19 05:33 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,069
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,069
In fact, there is a Kronos rackmount.

[Linked Image]

Re: Stop the madness! :)
GWILLY #2875800 08/03/19 06:15 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 21
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 21
IMO it all comes down to competition. Most of these companies have patents on their own key action designs and just kind of phone it in on the digital components. They seem to offer the bare minimum to stay competitive with everyone else in the market.

I was kind of surprised when I did a market-wide search for a new digital piano. So many units have cheap speakers and digital components that are decades old tech. It's the kind of market that a newcomer could totally come in and shake up, but the digital piano market is a bit too niche (aka unprofitable) to bother.

So sadly unless one of these companies become bored and feel like challenging the status quo I doubt it'll change anytime soon.

Re: Stop the madness! :)
Maconi #2875815 08/03/19 07:00 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 66
G
GWILLY Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
G
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 66
I suspect the opposite..... companies are working togeth...

Re: Stop the madness! :)
Bosendorff #2875826 08/03/19 07:52 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,743
A
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,743
Originally Posted by Bosendorff
In fact, there is a Kronos rackmount.

[Linked Image]

Good luck fitting that into a 19" rack.

Re: Stop the madness! :)
anotherscott #2875841 08/03/19 09:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,069
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,069
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Good luck fitting that into a 19" rack.

It should fit just fine in a 56" rack though.

Re: Stop the madness! :)
GWILLY #2875881 08/04/19 03:35 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,671
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,671
Originally Posted by GWILLY


Ps.. Pianoteq on Tablets.. :P


Pianoteq from the Cloud doesn't sound so good does it?


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Re: Stop the madness! :)
GWILLY #2875885 08/04/19 03:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,859
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,859
1. Yeah! Where's my foldable 61-key "travel piano" with weighted keys?!

2. And ... why didn't the Intel Compute Cards ever take off? I wanna be able to stick one in any keyboard - so I can play any VSTi I want.
[Linked Image]

3. Last but not least - Why is USB-C such a mess?
State of USB-C 2019 - https://www.androidauthority.com/state-of-usb-c-870996/


We are the music makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams.
Re: Stop the madness! :)
GWILLY #2875887 08/04/19 03:51 AM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,330
C
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,330
Originally Posted by GWILLY
Ps.. Pianoteq on Tablets.. :P


It works on Windows tablets. smile

Re: Stop the madness! :)
clothearednincompo #2875902 08/04/19 05:12 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,921
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,921
Yet it still sounds mediocre on tablets, right?
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by GWILLY
Ps.. Pianoteq on Tablets.. :P
It works on Windows tablets. smile

Re: Stop the madness! :)
GWILLY #2875915 08/04/19 07:05 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 614
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 614
There must be an infinite number of ways of saying Pianoteq's crap. Wonder what the compulsion to post them all, one after the other, is about. Must be something in the North Carolina water. Is it radiation?

Re: Stop the madness! :)
Maconi #2875936 08/04/19 08:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,473
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,473
Originally Posted by Maconi
IMO it all comes down to competition. Most of these companies have patents on their own key action designs and just kind of phone it in on the digital components. They seem to offer the bare minimum to stay competitive with everyone else in the market.

I was kind of surprised when I did a market-wide search for a new digital piano. So many units have cheap speakers and digital components that are decades old tech. It's the kind of market that a newcomer could totally come in and shake up, but the digital piano market is a bit too niche (aka unprofitable) to bother.

So sadly unless one of these companies become bored and feel like challenging the status quo I doubt it'll change anytime soon.
I think Roland is one of the few companies that (maybe) use relatively recent hardware inside their digital pianos, being that piano modeling requires much more processing power than sampling technology. But the problem is that many don't perceive an "incredible" jump in sound quality (and there are also people that don't like at all how the Roland DPs sound), so the other competitors are happy to continue to sell products in the thousands of dollars range, when I guess they spend much less than $100 for the logic-board, speakers and amplificator. Maybe other $100 for the keyboard mechanics and $100 for the wooden parts if you consider a cabinet-style piano (but I'm exaggerating, being that the wood they use is very cheap). So, about $300 for something that you pay between $2000 and $3000. I think it's a profitable business: maybe they don't sell an incredible amount of units, but from each unit sold they make a very BIG profit.
You can see that from cabinet-style Casio digital pianos: in Europe they cost MUCH less than Yamaha and Kawai similar products, but I don't think they are so inferior as the price difference would suggest...

Re: Stop the madness! :)
Maconi #2875951 08/04/19 09:37 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 281
O
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
O
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 281
Originally Posted by Maconi
IMO it all comes down to competition. Most of these companies have patents on their own key action designs and just kind of phone it in on the digital components. They seem to offer the bare minimum to stay competitive with everyone else in the market.

I was kind of surprised when I did a market-wide search for a new digital piano. So many units have cheap speakers and digital components that are decades old tech. It's the kind of market that a newcomer could totally come in and shake up, but the digital piano market is a bit too niche (aka unprofitable) to bother.
.


Yep. Take the Korg Kronos, even when it was released, the PC components were severely dated.


[Linked Image]
Re: Stop the madness! :)
thickfingers #2875975 08/04/19 10:34 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,921
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,921
Yes, there is.
Originally Posted by thickfingers
There must be an infinite number of ways of saying Pianoteq's crap. Wonder what the compulsion to post them all, one after the other, is about. Must be something in the North Carolina water. Is it radiation?
Just as there are many ways to say it's wonderful. Right? smile

Re: Stop the madness! :)
Ojustaboo #2875976 08/04/19 10:36 AM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,069
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,069
And yet the Kronos still remains today the best workstation/synthesizer on the market. Even the newer Yamaha Montage feels like a toy in comparison. That's how it works with the exponential development of technology nowadays. The more complex the design, the more chances the product can appear obsolete by the time it comes out of R&D. But specs alone means nothing. Lots of people are blinded by specs and that newer is better.

I've worked in the translation field a few decades. By the time a team is done translating a book about the latest version of Windows, MS Office or of a programming language, the book is already obsolete because there is a new version of the product coming out. But people need to read about technology and wait for the translated books to be out.

How old are the patents and designs for the Steinway D, the Hammond B3, the Mellotron or Moog modular systems ? Yet, no manufacturer of digital instruments can correctly emulate them today in their newest "most perfect yet reproduction". In 1989, I bought a MIDIboard to get the best keyboard controller available then. I payed twice as much as a VPC-1 back then. Calculate the inflation rate. Nobody would pay that much today - the product would be a total failure profit-wise for any company. Yet, it works perfectly after 30 years, has poly aftertouch, wooden keys and offers quite complex MIDI/SYSEX programmability. Are its components obsolete ? Sure. But try to find a better and more complete controller today of similar quality. Good luck.

Re: Stop the madness! :)
Bosendorff #2876006 08/04/19 12:20 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 281
O
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
O
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 281
Originally Posted by Bosendorff
And yet the Kronos still remains today the best workstation/synthesizer on the market. Even the newer Yamaha Montage feels like a toy in comparison. That's how it works with the exponential development of technology nowadays. The more complex the design, the more chances the product can appear obsolete by the time it comes out of R&D. But specs alone means nothing. Lots of people are blinded by specs and that newer is better.

I've worked in the translation field a few decades. By the time a team is done translating a book about the latest version of Windows, MS Office or of a programming language, the book is already obsolete because there is a new version of the product coming out. But people need to read about technology and wait for the translated books to be out.

How old are the patents and designs for the Steinway D, the Hammond B3, the Mellotron or Moog modular systems ? Yet, no manufacturer of digital instruments can correctly emulate them today in their newest "most perfect yet reproduction". In 1989, I bought a MIDIboard to get the best keyboard controller available then. I payed twice as much as a VPC-1 back then. Calculate the inflation rate. Nobody would pay that much today - the product would be a total failure.


Yep, I don’t disagree. I had a Kronos, a superb instrument (well it was when I got my third one, first two had keybed problems). But it could have been so much more. The biggest pain for me was having an idea spring into my mind, going to the Kronos, turning it on, and having to wait what felt like 5 mins for it to boot up (probably about 2 mins in reality). That was one of the main reasons I sold it. Something that I believe could have been avoided with a more modern 64bit CPU and motherboard etc.

The original Kronos had an off the shelf intel D510MO motherboard and unless they’ve changed things, you couldn’t simply replace with a motherboard of your choice. There was concern at the time about lack of replacement parts in years to come.

Things like the B3 were built to last and can still be repaired today, I wouldn’t want to spend £2500 on a synth only to find 10 years down the line the motherboard has blown and the synth is now useless.

But there’s zero competition for the Kronos.


[Linked Image]
Re: Stop the madness! :)
GWILLY #2876009 08/04/19 12:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,473
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,473
What? Some minutes to boot up? Maybe it has a mechanical hard disk with gigabytes of data to load at startup?

P.S.: I'm glad I can play on my digital piano after 2 seconds from the power on... laugh

Re: Stop the madness! :)
GWILLY #2876022 08/04/19 12:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,921
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,921
Yes, the load time was getting oppressive for me. A new, faster computer with SSD was a big improvement.

But you gotta pay the price for realistic piano sound. There's no way around it.

Re: Stop the madness! :)
Ojustaboo #2876029 08/04/19 01:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,069
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,069
Originally Posted by Ojustaboo
The biggest pain for me was having an idea spring into my mind, going to the Kronos, turning it on, and having to wait what felt like 5 mins for it to boot up (probably about 2 mins in reality).

With the Kronos, always remember you have to turn the unit on before you have a good musical idea.

Personally, it doesn't bother me so much. Maybe it's because in the past I was used to a similar situation when starting my Hammond C3 and Leslie. On Hammonds with the full-size tone generator, you have two electric motors. So to start the organ, you need to hold a first switch about 30 seconds - this makes a strong but imprecise electric motor initiate the rotation of the many wheels and gears in the tone generator. Then, you turn on the other switch which calls a more precise but delicate electric motor to keep the thing rotating. Meanwhile, the Leslie amplifier vacuum tubes are not done warming up, so they remain silent for a while.

I also have happy memories of an old sampler I had, called an Ensoniq Mirage. At startup, it needed to load a 3,5" diskette before making any sound and this took quite a moment. The worse was that every time you wanted to change sounds, you had to load another diskette and wait again. I remember doing live gigs with this thing, I would always glue a piece of paper on it to remind me which disks to load before each piece. I really like my Kronos now, despite its startup time. About 400 lbs lighter than a Hammond and I can change sounds right away.

Re: Stop the madness! :)
Ojustaboo #2876119 08/04/19 06:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,071
C
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,071
Originally Posted by Ojustaboo
. . .

Things like the B3 were built to last and can still be repaired today, I wouldn’t want to spend £2500 on a synth only to find 10 years down the line the motherboard has blown and the synth is now useless.

.


But in ten years, there'd be a new and better synth on the market, cheaper! And your musical taste would have changed, so you wouldn't need all the old patches . . . <g>

You just haven't bought into "planned obsolescence" in its full glory.<G>

PS -- I am faced with replacing a ROM sample-holding chip on my PX-350, _if_ it's still available; I have more sympathy for your point of view than I express.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
100,000!
---------------------
NEW! Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
First post. Question about Baldwin model R
by Gregory Waits - 01/16/21 11:29 AM
Garritans CFX Sample Player ???
by DigitalMusicProduc - 01/16/21 11:16 AM
The College Experience
by MinscAndBoo - 01/16/21 10:40 AM
Kawai ES110 Quality Control
by MusicMaster709 - 01/16/21 10:32 AM
Kawai ES920 Bug Report!
by Chummy - 01/16/21 09:36 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics204,292
Posts3,047,291
Members100,077
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4