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Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287512
10/07/04 01:47 AM
10/07/04 01:47 AM
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Christopher James Quinn Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Jazzmandave:

New, Baldwin Grand pianos will now cost similar money to Steinways of comparable size.
ha ha ha ha ha

Who is making new BAldwins and who is paying list price on them? Now I know we can dismiss everything you say.

Are you in the piano business? If so, you are required to state that in your signature.

As for not seeing the piano. 14.5 k is so out of line that no one has to see it to make this determination.

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Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287513
10/07/04 02:30 AM
10/07/04 02:30 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,128
Philadelphia/South Jersey
Rich Galassini Offline
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My 2 cents,

14k for this Baldwin M seems awfully high, unless it has been fully rebuilt and refinished. The problem here is that a 1978 Baldwin M should NOT need rebuilding now, unless it has had a very rough life. If you feel strongly about this piano, have a tech. look it over.

My suggestion is to play other pianos (sounds like you are doing this) and find what else is available for what you feel comfortable spending. There are some nice instruments out there!

Good luck,


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
(215) 991-0834 direct line
rich@cunninghampiano.com
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Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287514
10/07/04 03:13 AM
10/07/04 03:13 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,288
Cincinnati
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Cincinnati
Lani,
I grew up with Baldwins as my Dad worked for them for years then was a Baldwin dealer for another 20 years. That would be a high price for a used L, much less an M.

The piano is, from what I read, from 1978, which makes it 26 years old. I agree with Mr. Quinn and others on here.. that piano is WAY overpriced. There are a lot of new and very nice pianos you could get for that.


Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'
Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287515
10/07/04 03:18 AM
10/07/04 03:18 AM
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Christopher James Quinn Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by mikhailoh:
There are a lot of new and very nice pianos you could get for that.
The most important point made in this thread, IMO.

Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287516
10/07/04 03:29 AM
10/07/04 03:29 AM
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Cincinnati
mikhailoh Offline
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I took a look at the dealer's web site. Looks to me like the guy simply starts at a high price, not an unusual thing in piano sales.

You may very well be able to get this piano for a reasonable price, but I would look around a lot more if I were you. Anyone have any recommendations for her in the Bay area?


Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'
Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287517
10/07/04 03:40 AM
10/07/04 03:40 AM
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Posts: 2,506
Denver, Colorado
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AndrewG Offline
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I agree with others that 14.5K for a Baldwin M is TOO high. About 10 months ago one of my friends purchased her new L for 20k from a dealer who does excellent prep job to all the pianos that he sells. Keep looking I guess.

Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287518
10/07/04 05:01 AM
10/07/04 05:01 AM
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Don't pay 14,000 for a 6,000 piano.

Next question?

Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287519
10/07/04 06:33 AM
10/07/04 06:33 AM
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Posts: 154
Portland, Oregon
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Well, I'm outnumbered and maybe I'm off base.

I also agree with the others that there are numerous grand pianos for that price range brand new that are very nice.

I just know from years of experience its impossible to appraise a quality handmade piano based on it's age. If you disagree, fine.

As for Christopher, Im not sure where your hostility comes from, but its wierd.

Since you asked:

Baldwin pianos bearing the Baldwin logo are still manufactured in Trumann, Arkansas.

I dont sell Baldwin, nor do I work for them. Yes I am in the piano business, as you would have seen first at the beginning of this thread, secondly in my profile, and third now in my signature. (just figured out that part)
I have been in this industry all of my life. So, Christopher, what are YOUR qualifications to be advising retail piano customers?


David Rooksby
D.S.M., Pearl River & Ritmuller Pianos
US/CANADA Marketing Director
www.pearlriverusa.com
Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287520
10/07/04 07:01 AM
10/07/04 07:01 AM
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Christopher James Quinn Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Jazzmandave:

Baldwin pianos bearing the Baldwin logo are still manufactured in Trumann, Arkansas.
There has been some debate about this, I'm not sure if anyone has seen a new artist grand come out of this factory. Anyone?

And even if they are being built, who is paying list price for them? That is the only way the price would be close to Steinway, as you pointed out. People pay list for Steinway, they do not pay list for BAldwins.
Quote

I dont sell Baldwin, nor do I work for them. Yes I am in the piano business, as you would have seen first at the beginning of this thread, secondly in my profile, and third now in my signature. (just figured out that part)
I have been in this industry all of my life. So, Christopher, what are YOUR qualifications to be advising retail piano customers?
For the record: unregistered users can not see your profile, that is why your affiliations should be in your sig, thanks for doing that.

My qualifications are this: I tried to sell a Baldwin M for a long time. I shopped for a BAldwin L for a while too. I spent a lot of effort attempting to establish the value of these two pianos, and I dare say that I have a good sense of the market value for a Baldwin M as a result. I'm no expert on any other value, for sure, but this particular model I think I am.

One thing I should have pointed out from the start was that I paid less than 14k for a new M nine years ago.

Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287521
10/07/04 07:25 AM
10/07/04 07:25 AM
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I was offered a new Baldwin R (ebony) in 1978 for 5,200.

Those of us who have gotten to know Christopher through this forum trust him--even when he plays a bad cop on television. Having recently shopped pianos and sold a Baldwin M, he is a good source for realistic pricing. Furthermore, I suspect that he is a good enough pianist to recognize quality differences between a Baldwin and a Steinway.

I would not advise someone to pay 14,000 for a 1999 Chevy Cavalier. Don't have to have worked in the auto industry to recognize a really, really bad deal.

As for Baldwin in general: As a pianist I am more positive about Baldwin than most technicians with whom I have spoken. Check posts from Del Fandrich (former head of R & D for Baldwin?) to find out what was going on there.

Baldwins at Steinway prices? 1) Most of the general public places a higher value on Steinway. 2) Most pianists place a higher value on Steinway. 3) Baldwin has gone bankrupt twice.

Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287522
10/07/04 07:36 AM
10/07/04 07:36 AM
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Portland, Oregon
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Christopher James Quinn:

My qualifications are this: I tried to sell a Baldwin M for a long time. I shopped for a BAldwin L for a while too. I spent a lot of effort attempting to establish the value of these two pianos, and I dare say that I have a good sense of the market value for a Baldwin M as a result. I'm no expert on any other value, for sure, but this particular model I think I am.

1. Market value of a piano, especially a fine piano, depends on its condition. If you disagree, fine. People actually in the piano industry would not agree with you.

2. Copying and pasting (out of context) my quote regarding current Baldwin prices in compared to Steinway into the thread "worst lies of the industry" and including my name is in poor taste.

My point on pricing was perhaps not thought through well, and I agree with you that people will PAY less for Baldwin than Steinway. Im not perfect, and I should have made my point in another manner.


David Rooksby
D.S.M., Pearl River & Ritmuller Pianos
US/CANADA Marketing Director
www.pearlriverusa.com
Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287523
10/07/04 07:44 AM
10/07/04 07:44 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
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Kansas
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Quote
Originally posted by Jazzmandave:
-sigh- which, apple, is why I have said it depends on the individual piano, and whether it has been rebuilt, restrung, refinished, replated, who knows? Maybe its in Spectacular condition...

nevermind...doesnt sound like you know much about pianos.
well... if you believe a M from '78 is worth 14,000 you deserve to sell Pearl Rivers. smokin


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287524
10/07/04 07:55 AM
10/07/04 07:55 AM
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Portland, Oregon
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Quote
Originally posted by MarkS:
I was offered a new Baldwin R (ebony) in 1978 for 5,200.

Baldwins at Steinway prices? 1) Most of the general public places a higher value on Steinway. 2) Most pianists place a higher value on Steinway. 3) Baldwin has gone bankrupt twice.
_________________________________________________
The above quote is true, I agree.

Mark saying it's worth $6000 and for Christopher to say it's worth $7500 without either of you having seeing it is no more factual than me saying its possible its worth a lot more. THAT was my point.

Im not here to defend Baldwin, I joined this thread to give my opinion to a customer, which was that I love their Grand pianos and if they are mint or rebuilt/refinished/etc..., even older ones can command a healthy price. And I DID comment that I thought $14,000 was on the high side.


David Rooksby
D.S.M., Pearl River & Ritmuller Pianos
US/CANADA Marketing Director
www.pearlriverusa.com
Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287525
10/07/04 08:10 AM
10/07/04 08:10 AM
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Portland, Oregon
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David Rooksby Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by apple:

[/qb]
well... if you believe a M from '78 is worth 14,000 you deserve to sell Pearl Rivers. smokin [/QB][/QUOTE]

Where did I write that I believe it's worth $14,000?

P.S. I love my industry, I'm proud of the pianos I sell and proud of my job, and I wont sink to your level of personal attack.


David Rooksby
D.S.M., Pearl River & Ritmuller Pianos
US/CANADA Marketing Director
www.pearlriverusa.com
Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287526
10/07/04 08:17 AM
10/07/04 08:17 AM
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Kansas
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then why did you publicly say I didn't know anything about pianos?

I'll apologize. I think it is a very worthy thing.... to sell any pianos. I hate to see someone whose money is very precious to them spend it unwisely. I may not be 'entitled' to give my opinion.....don't have a masters or anything in pianosales.... buy I don't retract it and think you are rude even tho I do apologise.

Now.... tell me which apologi-e is spelled correctly. laugh


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287527
10/07/04 08:37 AM
10/07/04 08:37 AM
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Portland, Oregon
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Quote
Originally posted by MarkS:
Don't pay 14,000 for a 6,000 piano.

Next question?
1. I apologize for saying you dont know anything about pianos, that went too far. Im sure you have some knowlege.

2. Your above post suggests you know that the piano in question is worth $6000. How did you arrive at that without knowing anything about the piano? Would professional technicians across the country who have spent their careers becoming experts and charge for educated appraisals that involve taking apart the piano, looking at many factors, approve of your sight unseen method?

3.The reason I participated in this thread beyond my original reply is simply to dispell the notion that you and Christopher, or anyone for that matter, have some astounding ability to appraise pianos sight unseen. It doesnt work that way, and will mislead consumers who don't know any better.


David Rooksby
D.S.M., Pearl River & Ritmuller Pianos
US/CANADA Marketing Director
www.pearlriverusa.com
Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287528
10/07/04 08:39 AM
10/07/04 08:39 AM
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Any item or product (including pianos of every description)are worth exactly what a willing buyer agrees to pay a willing seller. No more or no less. I have been selling Baldwin pianos since I was a freshman in college, nearly forty years ago. The opinions expressed in this forum are not going to influence or change the pricing policy of any Baldwin dealer, nor the market value of any used Baldwin grands. If a piano shopper finds this website and is dissuaded from choosing a Baldwin, in favor of some other esoteric brand from Eastern Europe or Asia, hopefully their investment will prove satisfactory, and they won't benefit from owning a Baldwin (at least the first time).


Craig Smith
aka "Piano Peddler"
Veteran industry professional
and keyboard musician
Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287529
10/07/04 08:50 AM
10/07/04 08:50 AM
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Portland, Oregon
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David Rooksby Offline
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My sentiments exactly. Thank you.


David Rooksby
D.S.M., Pearl River & Ritmuller Pianos
US/CANADA Marketing Director
www.pearlriverusa.com
Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287530
10/07/04 09:07 AM
10/07/04 09:07 AM
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What could possibly be done to a 26 year old Baldwin M to make it worth 14,000 when a year ago the same piano could be purchased new for that price? If it had been stored at perfect 40% humidity and never played what would it really be worth? Even if it had been rebuilt by someone of the calibre of Del Fandrich with a Ciresa soundboard, Abel hammers, etc. would it be worth 14,000?

My advice: call a Baldwin dealer and ask what they will offer for a pristine 1978 Baldwin M.

Sorry to pick on Baldwin but here goes:

Bankruptcy No. 1
Many elderly who bought annuities from Baldwin-United died before the smoke cleared.

Bankruptcy No. 2
Anyone who owned a Baldwin saw their warranty cancelled.

Tell me "it's different this time."

Baldwin made some great pianos. In my opinion a 1950's Acrosonic was the best spinet made and the concert grands from the 1950's were stunning.

...and the authorized Baldwin dealer I shopped is now bankrupt, too.

Maybe it's time to let Baldwin rest in peace.

Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287531
10/07/04 09:14 AM
10/07/04 09:14 AM
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What are these esoteric Eastern European and Asian brands?

I'll bet Petrof, Schimmel, and several others are making more pianos than Baldwin right now.

Is Yamaha an esoteric brand? How about Kawai? Never heard of Yamaha or Kawai failing to honor a warranty. In fact, I personally know of a situation in which Yamaha provided a repair after the warranty had expired--free of charge.

A local piano technician told me that Gulbransen quit making pianos when they realized that they could no longer do a decent job of it. And others?

Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287532
10/07/04 09:22 AM
10/07/04 09:22 AM
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california
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I appreciate this forum very much-thank you for educating me about this piano series and your recommendations. I like the idea of contacting dealers per Marks' suggestion, but won't the dealers want to see the piano to appraise its value? Perhaps if there is a "bluebook'"of pianos site someone could suggest, or if anyone has a guide that might indicate the low to high range that might be the best. Mostly I feel disappointed about the pricing from my tuner. I'm not sure I should take my daughter to play it if the price is not negotiable(?) -I wouldn't want her disappointed. But I think she should try it out a lot of different pianos because she will become more educated and get a "feel" for what she likes too. I'm glad to read the posts about the Acrosonic; she loves her little spinet and is having hard time "separating" from it. If anyone can suggest some good Baldwin resources here in the SF Bay area, I'd appreciate it. Regards, Lani

Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287533
10/07/04 09:27 AM
10/07/04 09:27 AM
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for the record, and I hoped I had conveyed it earlier... I am a BIG fan of Baldwins ...at a fair to everyone price.


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287534
10/07/04 09:28 AM
10/07/04 09:28 AM
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Estonia, Bohemia, Sangler & Sohne, any of the pianos coming out of Belarus come to mind. Have you serviced any J. Becker pianos lately? You sound bitter against Baldwin. Did you not get paid for warranty work for the company or a former dealer (Biasco)? Yamaha and Kawai have excellent warranties and service records; no one is making an issue there. If you as a technician feel that Pramberger or any Korean piano is in the same category as hand-crafted pianos like Baldwin, Steinway, Mason & Hamlin, or any of the fine German pianos, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287535
10/07/04 09:29 AM
10/07/04 09:29 AM
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california
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lani Offline OP
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P.S. When a company goes out of business, does that mean parts will be hard to come by if something needs to be replaced? Lani

Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287536
10/07/04 09:31 AM
10/07/04 09:31 AM
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Jazzbo,

I'm not a technician, just a pianist. I hope I didn't give the wrong impression.

I've never played a piano from Belarus but I doubt that they compare with my Estonia 190.

I'm bitter about great companies which have been run into the ground.

Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287537
10/07/04 09:40 AM
10/07/04 09:40 AM
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Posts: 154
Portland, Oregon
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David Rooksby Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by MarkS:
What could possibly be done to a 26 year old Baldwin M to make it worth 14,000 when a year ago the same piano could be purchased new for that price?
_______________________________________________

1) It is ridiculous and wildly incorrect to suggest that you could buy a new Baldwin M for $14,000 a year ago, unless you mean wholesale. (this thread was initiated by a RETAIL customer, not wholesale)

2) As to what could be done to make that piano worth that money, .... lots. If you don't know what can be done to pianos to restore them, then you're not really in a position to establish a value for any piano, are you.

3) Baldwin's past bankruptcy filing is not relevant to this thread's original topic, which was a retail customer asking for opinions on a specific used Baldwin Grand.


David Rooksby
D.S.M., Pearl River & Ritmuller Pianos
US/CANADA Marketing Director
www.pearlriverusa.com
Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287538
10/07/04 10:21 AM
10/07/04 10:21 AM
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Jazzmandave,

It was a former Baldwin dealer advertising in the Chicago Tribune. And to be honest, I believe the price was 15,000 for the M. The SF-10 was 28,000. I don't recall the prices for the R and L. I had played the SF-10 a few months earlier and it was a very nice piano. This dealer was posting a "reckless" price (9,995 and eager to negotiate) on a Weber WSG 57 because he also no longer carried the Weber franchise.

It might be possible to increase the musical value of a Baldwin M. But the economic value would be determined by what someone would pay for it. Can't imagine anything outside of gold leaf that would make an old Baldwin M worth 14,000. But I did enjoy your ad hominem attack. Perhaps it hit the mark since I attempted some major work on my 1915 Sohmer without any assistance. (I did very well on the hammers and action; never mention the treble bridge.) Did I make a mess of it? Yes and no. I played it nineteen years and then left it to a rebuilder to turn it into a fine piano for its next owner. Mostly I learned a lot about the piano and myself, something money cannot buy.

Since someone suggested that new Baldwins are priced just the same as Steinways I thought I'd set the record straight as to the company's track record. "You made the comparison Senator."


Lani,

I can't imagine that parts would be a problem for an old Baldwin. Pianos aren't like cars in terms of longevity or parts availability.

There are those would suggest that I'm trying to dissuade you from buying this piano. Not at all. This could be a fine purchase at the right price. If I had owned a Baldwin M I wouldn't have bothered piano shopping.

Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287539
10/07/04 10:29 AM
10/07/04 10:29 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by lani:
. Mostly I feel disappointed about the pricing from my tuner. I'm not sure I should take my daughter to play it if the price is not negotiable(?) If anyone can suggest some good Baldwin resources here in the SF Bay area, I'd appreciate it. Regards, Lani [/QB]
Lani:
I am assuming from your tuner's website that you live in Marin county. Why don't you take a day and visit several dealers in the SF Bay area. Colton Piano has been a Baldwin dealer in the past and no doubt has used Baldwin grands, in addition to the other brands they represent. Sherman Clay has many stores in the area; go to the one with the largest selection of grands. You can also check Music Exchange in Santa Rosa, Walnut Creek and other locations. Carnes Piano and other stores that I am not familiar with. Do a yellow page search under pianos. Maybe there are some other rebuilders and used piano dealers (similar to your tuner) that you can compare prices. Finally, why don't you visit your tuner again and see what kind of price you can negotiate. All his website indicated was the asking price, which is only a starting point. You have never said if his price is cast in stone, or what kind of trade-in you might expect. In the final analysis, your decision should be based on the musical quality of the instrument you are considering, and value for price you are investing. I think you have many instruments to choose from in your area, and you may very well end up with the Baldwin M you first inquired about.

Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287540
10/07/04 10:44 AM
10/07/04 10:44 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 136
Jazzbo Offline
Full Member
Jazzbo  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 136
This was posted yesterday under another topic:

Baldwin Artist grands used to sell in the 20K range, depending on size and finish, but not any more. Since Gibson took over ownership of Baldwin and cancelled most of the dealers, grand production is only a fraction of the pre-Gibson era. Many of the former dealers still had inventory left over, which drove average street prices down somewhat. However, there have been several price increases (over 25% wholesale just in the past 90 days) on new Baldwin grands. The reasons are known to Henry Juszkiewicz (Gibson/Baldwin CEO), but my guess is that with a much smaller dealer base, lower unit production will require much greater per unit costs, in order for the factory to operate in the black. I also think Mr. J. sincerely believes his product to be at least equal to S & S and M & H in terms of quality (if not yet public perception). Once the old products have sold through the former dealers' stock, there will no longer be $20K Baldwins on the market. The new or surviving Baldwin dealers will be offering $40K Artist grands to their customers and the discounts won't be as drastic as we have seen in the past couple years.

Re: Opinions needed re: Baldwin Artist M baby grand (5'2") #287541
10/07/04 10:56 AM
10/07/04 10:56 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,288
Cincinnati
mikhailoh Offline
4000 Post Club Member
mikhailoh  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,288
Cincinnati
Lani,

To cut through all the info on here, I offer the following suggestions:

1. You have determined that you could handle a larger piano than a 5'2". I would suggest you try to find someething bigger. The Baldwin M is probably the nicest 5'2" piano I have seen, but ultimately it is still a 5'2" and may not have the bass to satisfy your daughter long term.

2. The great majority of posts on here, and all those that come from posters whose views I am familiar with, hold that it is unlikely a 1978 M would be worth the $14K asking price of this piano. In any event the piano is 26 years old and could need work to make it satisfactory. Baldwins are very tough instruments but a lot can happen in 26 years. You do not know the history of this piano and rebuilding is quite expensive.

3. You should be able to find pretty much any piano in the Bay area. You would be well advised to look around.

3. The general concensus of forum opinion is that to make a good choice on a grand one should invest considerable time in playing as many instruments as you can find, in your price range or not. There are many fine instruments out there with as many different characteristics in tone, action and quality. There are also some amazing bargains if you should be lucky enough to find one.

4.It is a big cash outlay, and if you buy a poor piano (which is not very likely here, but is possible) you are left with the very nasty choice of either pouring more money, possibly quite a lot, into it or foisting it off on some other unlucky buyer, which I am sure you would not want to do.

5. A warranty from a technician is not necessarily the same caliber as a warranty from a dealer/manufacturer on a new piano. Do not confuse the two.

6. I am not against purchasing a used piano, and in fact I tried to find one myself. In my opinion the used piano market right now is overpriced. The 'great used piano for a great price' is pretty hard to find. Even if the M is a great piano, it is an awfully steep price. If you are to buy used, make sure you have a tech to examine them that you can fully trust.


Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'
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