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Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? [Re: magicpiano] #2873240
07/27/19 02:14 PM
07/27/19 02:14 PM
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^ Thanks, I can hear it even through my iPhone speakers and later on I’ll try with headphones which should be even better. According to Alexander Kuznetsov from Pianoteq forums, older grands have an una-corda that’s more pronounced compared to modern grands.


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Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? [Re: CyberGene] #2873245
07/27/19 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
According to Alexander Kuznetsov from Pianoteq forums, older grands have an una-corda that’s more pronounced compared to modern grands.


I'm not sure we can generalize from what he stated about his own piano. But there is likely a case where a new grand won't have compacted, hardened hammers to begin with so the una corda effect will be quite reduced, compared to broken in hammers that have well-work grooves from regular play.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? [Re: magicpiano] #2873256
07/27/19 03:08 PM
07/27/19 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
According to Alexander Kuznetsov from Pianoteq forums, older grands have an una-corda that’s more pronounced compared to modern grands.


I don't play the historic pianos on Pianoteq but on all the modern grands in Pianoteq there is a slider to set the intensity of the Una Corda effect if you want something else than the factory setting. Honestly, it works good and it can be set from inaudible to totally muffled

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? [Re: stamkorg] #2873258
07/27/19 03:11 PM
07/27/19 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by stamkorg
Originally Posted by CyberGene
According to Alexander Kuznetsov from Pianoteq forums, older grands have an una-corda that’s more pronounced compared to modern grands.


I don't play the historic pianos on Pianoteq but on all the modern grands in Pianoteq there is a slider to set the intensity of the Una Corda effect if you want something else than the factory setting. Honestly, it works good and it can be set from inaudible to totally muffled

He meant real acoustic grands, not Pianoteq.


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Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? [Re: magicpiano] #2873268
07/27/19 03:41 PM
07/27/19 03:41 PM
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Ok sorry I didn't understand

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? [Re: CyberGene] #2894333
09/26/19 06:30 AM
09/26/19 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Andrew_G
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I’m not sure the una-corda effect on grands is so drastic.
I find this effect in Garritan CFX, Ravenscroft 275 and Ivory ACD (which I play a lot) so drastic that I tend to apply it almost always.

I’ll have to revisit my Garritan CFX. However the N1X is so subtle it’s almost as if though the pedal does nothing.

Which is as mine, but I just don't think that is the proper behavior. I just watched this video:



...and it appears from the video, that with the una corda pedal fully depressed on an acoustical grand, the hammer should hit one of two, or two of three strings, on most of the notes except for A0-F#1. Even with sympathetic vibrations of the string not hit by the hammer, it should result in a significantly reduced sound for most keys, and especially G1-A#2 where it is hitting only 1 instead of 2 strings.

I'm hitting C2 on my N1X, for example, which is in this 1-string range, with and without the una corda pedal, and I almost don't detect a difference in the sound. I can't believe this is the sound of half the strings being hit. That would mean the sympathetic vibration of the untouched string is almost the same as if it had been hit by the hammer. That's stretches my incredulity.

I don't believe my N1X's una corda pedal is working, or if this is the behavior of all N1X's, I don't believe Yamaha has calibrated the sound properly.

Can someone with an acoustical grand test their C2 key and see if the una corda pedal has an effect?



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Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2894334
09/26/19 06:41 AM
09/26/19 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I can't believe this is the sound of half the strings being hit. That would mean the sympathetic vibration of the untouched string is almost the same as if it had been hit by the hammer. That's stretches my incredulity.

I should probably look up the acoustical energy transfer function via sympathetic vibration and do a little calculation here, but I am just not buying it for now...


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? [Re: magicpiano] #2894340
09/26/19 07:20 AM
09/26/19 07:20 AM
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Tyrone, you might have to re-read this entire thread, including the reference to Philip's answer in the Pianoteq thread which is not so much about Pianoteq but rather about how real grand pianos are set so that the una-corda pedal moves the keyboard in such a way that the hammer strikes two out of three strings in the same hammer grooves, but only shifted. Which preserves the hammers, but makes the effect very subtle. Philip himself preferred that approach. There's no consensus on what is a good implementation of una-corda, but it seems it's not rare for this effect to be too too subtle.


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Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? [Re: CyberGene] #2894347
09/26/19 07:46 AM
09/26/19 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Tyrone, you might have to re-read this entire thread, including the reference to Philip's answer in the Pianoteq thread which is not so much about Pianoteq but rather about how real grand pianos are set so that the una-corda pedal moves the keyboard in such a way that the hammer strikes two out of three strings in the same hammer grooves, but only shifted. Which preserves the hammers, but makes the effect very subtle. Philip himself preferred that approach. There's no consensus on what is a good implementation of una-corda, but it seems it's not rare for this effect to be too too subtle.


Not exactly: when shifted via una corda pedal, the hammer usually strikes the three strings, not in the grooves but on the contrary between the grooves where the felt is softer. And the left string is hit by the edge of the hammer. Hitting two of the three strings inside the grooves as you say is another possibility, but not much liked because it damages the hammer (a pianist using often the una corda would make the two left grooves deeper than the right one, it would become a real issue when not using the una corda).


Last edited by pianophil; 09/26/19 07:48 AM.
Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? [Re: pianophil] #2894351
09/26/19 07:49 AM
09/26/19 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by pianophil
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Tyrone, you might have to re-read this entire thread, including the reference to Philip's answer in the Pianoteq thread which is not so much about Pianoteq but rather about how real grand pianos are set so that the una-corda pedal moves the keyboard in such a way that the hammer strikes two out of three strings in the same hammer grooves, but only shifted. Which preserves the hammers, but makes the effect very subtle. Philip himself preferred that approach. There's no consensus on what is a good implementation of una-corda, but it seems it's not rare for this effect to be too too subtle.


Not exactly: when shifted via una corda pedal, the hammer usually strikes the three strings, not in the grooves but on the contrary between the grooves where the felt is softer. And the left string is hit by the edge of the hammer. Hitting two of the three strings inside the grooves as you say is another possibility, but not much liked because it damages the hammer (a pianist using often the una corda would make the two left grooves deeper than the right one, it would become a real issue when not using the una corda).


Ahh, thanks for clarification, I have misunderstood your post in the Pianoteq thread.


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Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? [Re: magicpiano] #2894361
09/26/19 08:05 AM
09/26/19 08:05 AM
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If the hammer strikes all three strings when using the una corda then something is wrong or out of alignment. The hammer should only strike two strings on a three-string unison.

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? [Re: MacMacMac] #2894365
09/26/19 08:08 AM
09/26/19 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
If the hammer strikes all three strings when using the una corda then something is wrong or out of alignment. The hammer should only strike two strings on a three-string unison.

Also, for the hammer to hit all 3 strings would change the quality of the sound (because it would hit the fluffier part of the hammer), but probably not the volume. Is this what was intended by the pedal? Seems like they should rename the pedal if it is going to behave in a different way from what it was originally meant to do.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2894379
09/26/19 08:50 AM
09/26/19 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
If the hammer strikes all three strings when using the una corda then something is wrong or out of alignment. The hammer should only strike two strings on a three-string unison.

Also, for the hammer to hit all 3 strings would change the quality of the sound (because it would hit the fluffier part of the hammer), but probably not the volume. Is this what was intended by the pedal? Seems like they should rename the pedal if it is going to behave in a different way from what it was originally meant to do.


It is a matter of taste. You can get a very nice sound when two strings are hit in the middle of the grooves and the third one (the left string) by the edge of the hammer (it adds some 'zing' to the sound). Hitting two strings is another possibility, but it is better not to fall in the grooves to avoid an irregular wear of the hammer. Hence you must go a bit farther to the right. This requires a very well regulated piano as you get closer to the neighboring note.

Last edited by pianophil; 09/26/19 08:51 AM.
Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? [Re: magicpiano] #2894383
09/26/19 08:58 AM
09/26/19 08:58 AM
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How about half-pedaling the una-corda pedal? Pressing it fully would move the keyboard one full string-length to the right. And then by half-pedaling the pianist may produce varioius effect such as that "between the groves" strike and/or edge-strike to produce a zing, etc.

Last edited by CyberGene; 09/26/19 08:59 AM.

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Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? [Re: magicpiano] #2894390
09/26/19 09:09 AM
09/26/19 09:09 AM
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It also depends on the wear on the hammers. If regulated the way Phil describes, there will be very little difference between normal and una cords on a brand new piano with ungrooved, unhardened hammer felts. Three strings being struck on soft felt in either case. On a piano that's been played for a few months or years, the felts will have compressed at the grooves, and the una corda becomes more prominent.

My guess is the reference CFX at Yamaha was probably a brand new specimen that the Yamaha techs had their pick of to use as reference, whereas Garritan and other VSTs chose their piano from a library of existing, well-played but well-regulated instruments.


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Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? [Re: Gombessa] #2894431
09/26/19 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
It also depends on the wear on the hammers. If regulated the way Phil describes, there will be very little difference between normal and una cords on a brand new piano with ungrooved, unhardened hammer felts. Three strings being struck on soft felt in either case. On a piano that's been played for a few months or years, the felts will have compressed at the grooves, and the una corda becomes more prominent.

My guess is the reference CFX at Yamaha was probably a brand new specimen that the Yamaha techs had their pick of to use as reference, whereas Garritan and other VSTs chose their piano from a library of existing, well-played but well-regulated instruments.

Ok. I don't want my N1X to be a new piano any more. How can I age it so my una corda pedal will start really working?

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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? [Re: magicpiano] #2894435
09/26/19 11:35 AM
09/26/19 11:35 AM
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To me it's clear that most digital pianos implementations of the 1-corda pedal are very basic and cheap. They act just as a velocity-limiter and that's very different from the way it works on a real acoustic grand. At least the third pedal is good-looking in my cabinet style digital-piano, even if it does nothing special to the sound, and I can use it effectively with a good VST with 1-corda samples or modeling.

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? [Re: CyberGene] #2894436
09/26/19 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
How about half-pedaling the una-corda pedal? Pressing it fully would move the keyboard one full string-length to the right. And then by half-pedaling the pianist may produce varioius effect such as that "between the groves" strike and/or edge-strike to produce a zing, etc.


This is also an interesting possibility, then it is up to the pianist to make his sound. If he is interested in playing that way (not so easy, some practice is needed), I would give 1.5 millimeter more freedom to the action.

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2894471
09/26/19 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Gombessa
It also depends on the wear on the hammers. If regulated the way Phil describes, there will be very little difference between normal and una cords on a brand new piano with ungrooved, unhardened hammer felts. Three strings being struck on soft felt in either case. On a piano that's been played for a few months or years, the felts will have compressed at the grooves, and the una corda becomes more prominent.

My guess is the reference CFX at Yamaha was probably a brand new specimen that the Yamaha techs had their pick of to use as reference, whereas Garritan and other VSTs chose their piano from a library of existing, well-played but well-regulated instruments.

Ok. I don't want my N1X to be a new piano any more. How can I age it so my una corda pedal will start really working?

You should have an option to make the effect(?) more strong. On my digital is set at 3/10 and it does nearly nothing. If I set it at 7 or 8/10 I hear clearly the velocity limiter in action when I press the keys harder.

Re: No una-corda samples on new digital pianos? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2894476
09/26/19 01:59 PM
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Really? Why sweat it?
Just look at the pedals on a used piano.
The damper is worn with no shine at all to the brass.
The una corda is near pristine. It's just not used very much.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Ok. I don't want my N1X to be a new piano any more. How can I age it so my una corda pedal will start really working?

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