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Closed v Open Headphones #2873195
07/27/19 11:45 AM
07/27/19 11:45 AM
Joined: Sep 2017
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South Wales
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Colin Miles Online content OP
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South Wales
When I got my LX7 almost a couple of years ago I also purchased the closed Sennheiser HD 280 pro headphones. They are very comfortable but I got tired of switching them between the piano and the computer. So I bought the open Roland RH-A7 headphones and they certainly seemed better with the piano. So I stuck the Sennheisers on the computer and have been using them there since.

But I have also been playing a LX705 at the local store, first with the Roland then the Sennheiser. And the first time I quite liked the sound, the second time not that much. At the time I thought it might be just me and my ears. So yesterday I experimented by comparing the two, first on my computer and then on the piano. On the computer they were both identical and all the piano samples were good and as I would expect. But with the piano the Sennheiser was just too 'electronic'. - not at all nice, particularly on the concert grand (I used to use the Ballad piano because of this coarseness). So this morning I tried them out on the LX705 with the same result.

Anyone any thoughts as to why these differences?


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
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Re: Closed v Open Headphones [Re: Colin Miles] #2873208
07/27/19 12:22 PM
07/27/19 12:22 PM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 262
Philadelphia
Bruce In Philly Offline
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Just a suggestion.... can you borrow a better headphone and try that on the LX705? Does the store sell more expensive units that you can try?

Full disclosure: I have not heard those headphones. But in my experience, 'phones in that price range are not all the best and what you may be hearing, is the complement/exaggeration of flaws (computer "sound" is a bit of an oxymoron to me). That piano is really nice and should express wonderful sounds. To appreciate those sounds, at a minimum, requires a more quality-oriented headphone to appreciate.

Sometimes a flawed headphone can sound good with a flawed source. For example, if the source produces bad digital sound... bright and hard... and the 'phone has a lazy high end... well they may work well together. This does not mean it is then great sound... for that, a great source, such as that LX705 requires a great 'phone to hear what the engineers really intended.

I am a keyboard hack and a lover of music with a great home audio system I built up over 30 years of tweaking and owning equipment. What happened to me over that journey is that my "ear" grew in understanding sound, and my equipment quality grew. I quickly found out at a young age, that equipment compatibility was very important. I would buy a piece of quality gear and then all of a sudden, something else didn't sound right... or the piece didn't sound as good as it did in the store. You may have hit this trip wire with the Roland LX705... it is exposing flaws in your 'phones. Welcome to the neurosis. But there is good news... if you put some effort into buying stuff that sounds good to you, you will never look back and your playing will connect like it never did before. It will.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

Last edited by Bruce In Philly; 07/27/19 12:28 PM.

Peace
Bruce in Philly
Re: Closed v Open Headphones [Re: Colin Miles] #2873231
07/27/19 01:58 PM
07/27/19 01:58 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 628
Bay Area CA
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pwl Offline
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I, too, own those Sennheisers. They're not bad headphones, but they're far from perfect. (It's a trade-off: Sometimes I need a closed back 'phone and so I accept the limitations.) The LX705 is simply exposing some of their flaws.

Re: Closed v Open Headphones [Re: pwl] #2873384
07/28/19 04:53 AM
07/28/19 04:53 AM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 20
Kosice
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pengi Online content
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Yesterday I went to store, because I am considering buying LX705 or LX-7 and wanted to try the pianos out with my older Sennheiser HD555 open headphones and the LX705 sounded so much better with them. I was very pleased with the audio quality of the piano. When I order the piano, I will have some more time to test the sound for flaws on my headphones, but my ear isn't trained to such extent as Bruce mentioned.


Roland LX-705
Past: Yamaha PSR E-363

Slovakia, KE
Re: Closed v Open Headphones [Re: Colin Miles] #2873392
07/28/19 06:01 AM
07/28/19 06:01 AM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 93
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Craig Richards Offline
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I own a pair of Sennheiser HD 280 Pros, but mainly use them for minimal-bleed monitoring when recording vocals or live instruments. They are well regarded in the commercial audio world and remote recording applications as having a flat frequency response and respond well with dynamic material, and are well constructed headphones. Like most closed designs, they will sound 'boxy' with a full range instrument such as the piano. Open back designs are definitely the way to go. Much better soundstage & depth, at the expense of audio bleed for anyone else near by. If I want to play my Yamaha CP4 digital piano or sampled pianos with headphones, I use my Yamaha HPH-200 cans. Light & comfortable, with great detail, dynamics & soundstage.


Pianist, Composer & Arranger
Re: Closed v Open Headphones [Re: Craig Richards] #2873396
07/28/19 06:28 AM
07/28/19 06:28 AM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 795
South Wales
C
Colin Miles Online content OP
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Colin Miles  Online Content OP
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Joined: Sep 2017
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South Wales
Originally Posted by Craig Richards
I own a pair of Sennheiser HD 280 Pros, but mainly use them for minimal-bleed monitoring when recording vocals or live instruments. They are well regarded in the commercial audio world and remote recording applications as having a flat frequency response and respond well with dynamic material, and are well constructed headphones. Like most closed designs, they will sound 'boxy' with a full range instrument such as the piano. Open back designs are definitely the way to go. Much better soundstage & depth, at the expense of audio bleed for anyone else near by. If I want to play my Yamaha CP4 digital piano or sampled pianos with headphones, I use my Yamaha HPH-200 cans. Light & comfortable, with great detail, dynamics & soundstage.


Thanks Craig. Makes sense. So always use open headphones on digitals.

Think this is something that should be far more widely known. Neither of my two dealers really knew anything much about headphones, and neither did the prof at the local college who teaches music technology.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: Closed v Open Headphones [Re: Craig Richards] #2873479
07/28/19 12:46 PM
07/28/19 12:46 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,114
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
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CyberGene  Online Content
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Originally Posted by Craig Richards
If I want to play my Yamaha CP4 digital piano or sampled pianos with headphones, I use my Yamaha HPH-200 cans. Light & comfortable, with great detail, dynamics & soundstage.

You got me interested and I researched a little. Many people praise the 200s but it seems there are also HPH-150 that are specifically made for digital pianos and the customer feedback is also great, especially from digital piano users. Taking in mind I will use them on my N1X, and since it’s pretty much possible that Yamaha also used them while developing their binaural patch, at just €73 I decided to order them from Amazon.

Last edited by CyberGene; 07/28/19 12:49 PM.

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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Closed v Open Headphones [Re: Colin Miles] #2873611
07/28/19 09:59 PM
07/28/19 09:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 93
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Craig Richards Offline
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Originally Posted by Craig Richards
I own a pair of Sennheiser HD 280 Pros, but mainly use them for minimal-bleed monitoring when recording vocals or live instruments. They are well regarded in the commercial audio world and remote recording applications as having a flat frequency response and respond well with dynamic material, and are well constructed headphones. Like most closed designs, they will sound 'boxy' with a full range instrument such as the piano. Open back designs are definitely the way to go. Much better soundstage & depth, at the expense of audio bleed for anyone else near by. If I want to play my Yamaha CP4 digital piano or sampled pianos with headphones, I use my Yamaha HPH-200 cans. Light & comfortable, with great detail, dynamics & soundstage.


Thanks Craig. Makes sense. So always use open headphones on digitals.

Think this is something that should be far more widely known. Neither of my two dealers really knew anything much about headphones, and neither did the prof at the local college who teaches music technology.

Glad it helped!


Pianist, Composer & Arranger
Re: Closed v Open Headphones [Re: CyberGene] #2873613
07/28/19 10:00 PM
07/28/19 10:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 93
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Craig Richards Offline
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Craig Richards
If I want to play my Yamaha CP4 digital piano or sampled pianos with headphones, I use my Yamaha HPH-200 cans. Light & comfortable, with great detail, dynamics & soundstage.

You got me interested and I researched a little. Many people praise the 200s but it seems there are also HPH-150 that are specifically made for digital pianos and the customer feedback is also great, especially from digital piano users. Taking in mind I will use them on my N1X, and since it’s pretty much possible that Yamaha also used them while developing their binaural patch, at just €73 I decided to order them from Amazon.


Good move Gene. These Yamaha headphones are great value.


Pianist, Composer & Arranger
Re: Closed v Open Headphones [Re: CyberGene] #2873683
07/29/19 04:03 AM
07/29/19 04:03 AM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 515
UK
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jamiecw Offline
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Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 515
UK
Originally Posted by CyberGene
... HPH-150.... and since it’s pretty much possible that Yamaha also used them while developing their binaural patch, at just €73 I decided to order them from Amazon.


CC, I'd be keen to hear your review/thoughts on these as I am in search for some decently priced openback headphones. As I already have the HPH-MT5s which I think sound awesome on the P515 CFX (albeit tight on the head and cannot wear them for too long) the 150s might be the answer.

Re: Closed v Open Headphones [Re: jamiecw] #2873687
07/29/19 04:52 AM
07/29/19 04:52 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,114
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
4000 Post Club Member
CyberGene  Online Content
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,114
Sofia, Bulgaria
Originally Posted by jamiecw
Originally Posted by CyberGene
... HPH-150.... and since it’s pretty much possible that Yamaha also used them while developing their binaural patch, at just €73 I decided to order them from Amazon.


CC, I'd be keen to hear your review/thoughts on these as I am in search for some decently priced openback headphones. As I already have the HPH-MT5s which I think sound awesome on the P515 CFX (albeit tight on the head and cannot wear them for too long) the 150s might be the answer.

I'll let you know, I'm also interested in those since they are marketed as "Open-air headphones with a neutral tone that is ideal for listening to digital musical instruments... Optimally tuned for listening to electronic musical instruments"

What I'm a bit worried is they are on-ear rather than around-the-ear but I've previously used on-ear (I grew up with a Philips walkman and its stock headphones) and can't remember having any discomfort. I also remember I had a pair of no-brand €5 on-ear headphones I bought from a supermarket long ago and they were great with my Yamaha P90 and then Roland RD-700SX, however I broke them by accident and I couldn't find them anymore and started testing so many other headphones (closed and open, cheap and expensive) with no luck until I finally bought a €150 Sennheiser HD-595-s. But it's still amusing to me that it was possible to have excellent sound with a digital piano from the cheapest possible on-ear headphones shocked


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Closed v Open Headphones [Re: CyberGene] #2873699
07/29/19 05:43 AM
07/29/19 05:43 AM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 515
UK
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jamiecw Offline
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jamiecw  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2017
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UK
Originally Posted by CyberGene

What I'm a bit worried is they are on-ear rather than around-the-ear but I've previously used on-ear (I grew up with a Philips walkman and its stock headphones) and can't remember having any discomfort. I also remember I had a pair of no-brand €5 on-ear headphones I bought from a supermarket long ago and they were great with my Yamaha P90 and then Roland RD-700SX, however I broke them by accident and I couldn't find them anymore and started testing so many other headphones (closed and open, cheap and expensive) with no luck until I finally bought a €150 Sennheiser HD-595-s. But it's still amusing to me that it was possible to have excellent sound with a digital piano from the cheapest possible on-ear headphones shocked


Well I am not surprised at all either - only last week I bought a cheap pair of Philips SHP1900 to use because I needed something that I can wear for longer than 45 mins when practicing and these are so light I hardly feel them around my head and lo and behold they don't sound half bad either considering they were £18.

Yes they feel like £18 worth and they just manage to sit around the ear although if they were a few cm bigger they'd fit totally around the ear but due to the light weight and they don't clamp the head they score high on my list. They are also neutral with a small bias towards making the sound warmer but not bass-ey at all. Hard to believe but I am rocking this all day long than the expensive MT5s now.

Re: Closed v Open Headphones [Re: Colin Miles] #2874432
07/31/19 09:27 AM
07/31/19 09:27 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,091
uk south
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dire tonic Offline
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uk south
Feeling some discomfort using over-ear cans during this recent heatwave I decided to try out the Yamaha HPH150. As chance would have it, amazon.uk were selling the white a couple of days ago for £41 although there was something very weird about their pricing; while allegedly "only 2 left", as soon as I hit "buy" the remaining pair went up to match the price of the black, now £75 – of course I’m not complaining. But having tried them, I’d pay the higher price - these sound fantastic, both for piano and general music listening too. I'm comparing these with AKG K702, Sennheiser 580 and 595. I'd say the Yamaha have a cleaner less veiled top-end similar to the AKGs. Bass is nice and free of boom. Listening to percussion, I'm hearing detail in the Yamaha's that's lacking in the 595's.

They look cheap and have a fairly thin cable so won't stand up to rough treatment but they're VERY comfortable at 140grms/155 with cable. They're easy to drive going beyond the pain threshold on my UR22 but still clean.

Re: Closed v Open Headphones [Re: Colin Miles] #2874438
07/31/19 09:56 AM
07/31/19 09:56 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,935
LA County, California
bSharp(C)yclist Offline
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I honestly don't know what a perfect headphone is, or the prefect sound.

Anyway, I used to use the HD 280 pro with the piano, but then changed to the 598Cs. I then changed to the HD 650 (Open), and use the 598Cs with my computer and on the airplane. The HD 280 pros just sit in a draw, and they are banged up. Muffs need to be replaced. I like the 650 over the 280. The 280s sound nasally to me, if that is even a word. This topic is interesting as i think most people (including myself), hear stuff that doesn't exist ...


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Re: Closed v Open Headphones [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2874444
07/31/19 10:16 AM
07/31/19 10:16 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,266
Raleigh, North Carolina
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This was exactly my impression of the 280.
Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
I used to use the HD 280 pro. ... The 280s sound nasally to me, if that is even a word.
Sound was bad. But also ... head-clamping was bad. Nasty.

Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
I think most people (including myself), hear stuff that doesn't exist ...
Well, some people see things that don't exist.
"I see dead people."

Re: Closed v Open Headphones [Re: dire tonic] #2874446
07/31/19 10:19 AM
07/31/19 10:19 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,114
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
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Sofia, Bulgaria
Originally Posted by dire tonic
Feeling some discomfort using over-ear cans during this recent heatwave I decided to try out the Yamaha HPH150. As chance would have it, amazon.uk were selling the white a couple of days ago for £41 although there was something very weird about their pricing; while allegedly "only 2 left", as soon as I hit "buy" the remaining pair went up to match the price of the black, now £75 – of course I’m not complaining. But having tried them, I’d pay the higher price - these sound fantastic, both for piano and general music listening too. I'm comparing these with AKG K702, Sennheiser 580 and 595. I'd say the Yamaha have a cleaner less veiled top-end similar to the AKGs. Bass is nice and free of boom. Listening to percussion, I'm hearing detail in the Yamaha's that's lacking in the 595's.

They look cheap and have a fairly thin cable so won't stand up to rough treatment but they're VERY comfortable at 140grms/155 with cable. They're easy to drive going beyond the pain threshold on my UR22 but still clean.

That's promising, thanks for your mini-review. Mine will arrive in the next days and I'm eager to compare them to my HD-595-s which are now the headphones I use with the N1X.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Closed v Open Headphones [Re: MacMacMac] #2874449
07/31/19 10:42 AM
07/31/19 10:42 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,935
LA County, California
bSharp(C)yclist Offline
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
This was exactly my impression of the 280.
Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
I used to use the HD 280 pro. ... The 280s sound nasally to me, if that is even a word.
Sound was bad. But also ... head-clamping was bad. Nasty.


I'm glad it's just not me then. Perhaps I don't hear dead people after all ;0


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Re: Closed v Open Headphones [Re: Colin Miles] #2879087
08/13/19 07:44 AM
08/13/19 07:44 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,114
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
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My Yamaha HPH-150 arrived. As I said, they are marketed as made for electronic instruments and in particular digital pianos. They are on-the-ear. I compared them side by side to my Sennheiser HD-595 on the N1X. My very first impression is they are slightly V-shaped, the middle bass is a bit pronounced and there is sibilance to the high notes. I don't quite like that frown In a matter of few minutes I get used to it, but when i switch to the HD595 it's a relief, the Sennheiser makes it so even, balanced and smooth. All at all, they are not bad and would work, maybe depending on the actual digital piano or software that's used but I prefer the HD595-s much more. Makes me re-appreciate them.

P.S. The HPH-150 are comfortable and make my ears less sweaty than the over-the-ear headphones.

P.P.S. Tried the HPH-150 on the reface CP and they work great for the electric pianos, the thick bass and bright highs are perfect.

Last edited by CyberGene; 08/13/19 07:48 AM.

My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Closed v Open Headphones [Re: Colin Miles] #2879099
08/13/19 08:15 AM
08/13/19 08:15 AM
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Posts: 515
UK
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jamiecw Offline
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Cheers CG - a bit surprised to hear this v-shaped sound - according to the source link below - v-shaped sound excels in:

What type of music does a “V-shaped” headphone excel in?

Basically, music genres that tend to have more lows and highs such as Hip hop, pop, modern rock and EDM. The boost that V-shaped headphones give to these types of music is significantly stronger than others.

On the flip side, genres like classical, indie rock and bluegrass which have a more balanced low, mids and highs will sound lackluster. The audio sounds slightly hollower on a V-shaped headphones and tends to get lost in the mix.

source: https://www.headphonesty.com/2017/01/v-shaped-sound-signature-mean/

Which means for playing classical music on a DP (which Yamaha state the HPH-150s are for digital keyboards) will fall short...shame, they looked promising..

Re: Closed v Open Headphones [Re: Colin Miles] #2879103
08/13/19 08:25 AM
08/13/19 08:25 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,114
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
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Sofia, Bulgaria
It's not the typical V-shaped sound that's indeed best for hip-hop, etc. It's a very slight V-shaped sound but I can still notice it in comparison to HD-595. I'm not saying they are bad. I could adapt in a matter of minutes and they were OK afterwards. However I prefer HD-595. And it would be just a matter of taste. I've heard people loving ATH-M50x on their digital pianos and those are much more V-shaped. I'm not sure who recommended to me the HD-595-s in this forum many years ago but I thank him again smile


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
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