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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
Gombessa #2872589 07/25/19 10:09 AM
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Maybe we can call them Mechatronics Piano.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #2872593 07/25/19 10:16 AM
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In a certain sense all is piano: a Rhodes piano, a DX7 piano, even a harmonium... why do we call them "digital" pianos when they are made of mechanical elements, plastic, and wood? How is wood a digital thing then?!


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
Gombessa #2872595 07/25/19 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by tblb
can we say tha the aures is also an hybrid piano ? it's kind best of both world , i'm hesiting between the n1x ,the nv10 and a k500 aures

Technically, you *could* call the Aures a hybrid, but it fits neither the dictionary definition nor the industry usage of the term so doing so would be confusing. A fully functioning acoustic piano with digital piano capabilities on top is referred to as a "silent piano" whether it has a transducer or not.


If you look on the Kawai website you'll see there's a section for Hybrid - under that there's Aures, Anytime Grand, Anytime Upright and Hybrid Digital Pianos. Under Hybrid on Yamaha's website are Diskclavier, Transacoustic, Silent and Avantgard so I'd say we're the ones using Hybrid in a very limited manner.

If I was head of the terminology police I'd restrict Hybrid to instruments with strings and electronics - just because the AG's and NV10's are awesome instruments the fact that the action is constructed in a different manner to say CA78 isn't to me a good enough reason for using the Hybrid label.

Kawai actually call the CA98 a Hybrid because of the soundboard.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
MacMacMac #2872596 07/25/19 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
A hybrid plant is a mixture of two separate species.
More generally a hybird is a mixture of two (or more?) things.
So ... a hybrid piano is a mixture of ... what two things?


An acoustic piano (with strings) and a digital piano (with electronics). That's how I'd define it but sadly nobody has put me in charge.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #2872600 07/25/19 10:25 AM
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To be fair, Mac's definition used to be much more proscriptive and idiosyncratic, so at least there's been movement towards an acceptable dictionary definition wink we'll get to consensus...together laugh


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #2872618 07/25/19 11:00 AM
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And yes, there's no real clear definition of "hybrid" even amongst piano manufacturers. I think the industry is slowly consolidating around the Yamaha-Avant Grand definition of an acoustic piano action with digital sound generation, but that's not the "only" type of hybrid that's possible and everyone in the industry is "guilty" of claiming that some aspect of their run of the mill DP qualifies as a "hybrid" in some way.

I'm sure this debate will live long after we've all passed on.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
Gombessa #2872627 07/25/19 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
While an intriguing idea, I think we don't see this very often because there are a number of associated costs that don't intuitively come to mind. Sure, why not just swap the mainboard? I've actually thought this to myself quite a bit--since Kawai will sell these for several hundred dollars as service items, what would it take if I waited for an NV20, bought that mainboard, replaced the one in the NV10, and did whatever is needed to rewire the speakers, etc.

In reality, there's a bunch of mundane hassle that makes doing so less ideal:

1. It's not a user serviceable module, and moving the piano, opening it, unwiring, unmounting, mounting the new part, and reversing all the steps is something that only a fraction of people would care to do, for everyone else it's a rather tedious/expensive service call.

2. The new part would have to be qualified for the rest of the components in the unit. I don't know what that would entail, but I envision stuff like FCC (or regional jurisdiction) certification, Bluetooth, RoHS, etc. What do you do with the old boards? Have users ship them back? What if they don't? You'll need a long term manual process to handle that.

3. The new part would have to maintain physical backwards compatibility. Maybe boards are already swap-able, but Kawai may want to change things as pedestrian as a wiring harness or the position/type of connectors. And now they have to think about whether that works in older equipment that can't be designed in parallel with the new board.

4. And if it can't be designed in parallel, then you need to branch/fork your hardware into a native V2 board and a retrofit V2 board? And support both? Another hw fork...

5. And what about new features that require different hardware off the main board (speakers, multi-channel input? etc.). Do you release new hardware modules for those too? Or decide on a per-product basis what to support, test for compatibility, and disable unsupported features based on legacy hardware?

6. What about UI changes needed to support/access the new features? Those would have to be ported over to the touchscreen (or whatever interface/display) too. And it seems to me that some people are already unhappy with the pace of Kawai's UI fixes/updates wink

7. And now that you've released this functionality, how long do you commit to supporting it? One generation? Three? Six years? What does that mean for your product development cycle and whether you hold off on new, incompatible features that can't be integrated into an older product? What's the acceptable lag time between a new product release and a retrofit board being available?

8. What will this mean for support? Does it increase costs of training techs (installing and fixing the new hardware), time to daignose, error rate in replacement parts, etc?

9. What percentage of users will opt for this kind of upgrade in order to make it, and all the operations/logistics needed to support it?

Any of these would be a potential headache, especially if it were a process retrofitted into the existing product line. Even in the best case scenario of future-proofing by building in purpose-made expansion capability, there are tons of examples where these go largely unused/unfulfilled. I'm thinking about the hidden expansion port in the original NES, the same with the N64, the "snap-on" hardware capabilities we're seeing in phones nowadays (Motorola, Essential, LG, Google project Ara)...

Maybe I'm just a pessimist smile





Gombessa, You wrote all this at 3:30AM?

You may be correct. However I watched the tech replace the main board in my first NV. It was pretty much plug and play. Maybe two or three connections. Several screws. It didn't take five minutes. I can't agree or dispute the rest of your commentary because I stopped reading after Point #1. sleep



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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
Gombessa #2872631 07/25/19 11:53 AM
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Nv10 and av, for me are hybrid : classical keyboard, virtual string
Transacoustic is a kind of hybrid too, but nothing is amputated, there’s something more , they can act as classical piano, they can act as digital piano, and those two part can interact together in both ways

Digital sound + acoustic
Digital sound can make string resonate
Etc ...

Last edited by tblb; 07/25/19 11:54 AM.
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
dhts #2872640 07/25/19 12:32 PM
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This is my thinking ...
Originally Posted by dhts
An acoustic piano (with strings) and a digital piano (with electronics). That's how I'd define it but sadly nobody has put me in charge.
The biggest difference between an acoustic and a digital is that the latter has no strings, and must generate sound by some other means. The two types have different actions (usually) ... but they're all 88 keys and three pedals. So "upgrading" an NWX or GF2 action to a grand action ... is an upgrade. A big improvement. Not a hybridization.

But perhaps the manufacturer's are more keen to use the term hybrid as a marketing tool.

Hybrid cars are deemed hip, green, and eco-friendly.

So from the manufacturer's marketing point of view, it might seem useful to refer to his best pianos as hybrid.
The word's value counts for much in the public eye (maybe). And the definition is largely irrelevant.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #2872647 07/25/19 12:52 PM
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Most of the people think that acoustic > digital , but honestly I tried Yamaha b1 and entry kawai , they sound like crap , I prefer a good digital , concerning touch, i’m A beginner , I can they there is a difference between my entry level digital ( Casio ap470) and an acoustic , but I can hardly make the difference between a ca78 and a Yamaha b1 for example .

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
ˆTomLCˆ #2872658 07/25/19 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by TomLC


Gombessa, You wrote all this at 3:30AM?

You may be correct. However I watched the tech replace the main board in my first NV. It was pretty much plug and play. Maybe two or three connections. Several screws. It didn't take five minutes. I can't agree or dispute the rest of your commentary because I stopped reading after Point #1. sleep


Lol, that's a tl;dr wink

I'm visiting the east coast, so I reckon it's later in the morning from where you are? smile

In any case, swapping a mainboard MADE for the NV-10 should take a minute or two, tops (once the piano is moved and panels removed). That's not a problem. But mounting a mainboard NOT made for the NV-10 is more problematic, because maybe the next-gen board needs to be bigger. And if you have to modify it to make it fit an NV10, that adds engineering, production and operational/support complexity. That's what my big wall'o'text was getting at.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #2872728 07/25/19 06:28 PM
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Yeah, I assumed you were on the west coast. Not to belabor the point, ( well maybe I am. wink )

But it would be made for the NV10, or NV11. So it should be the same size. Anyway it’s a mote point. I wouldn’t expect an updated NV10 to come out for several years. Maybe an NV grand though.



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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
ˆTomLCˆ #2872746 07/25/19 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by TomLC

But it would be made for the NV10, or NV11. So it should be the same size.


That's not always a safe assumption to make. Internals get shifted around, rearranged, or re-spec'd frequently when updated. It may be the same size, but the connectors in different places (requiring extensions to existing cables), the connectors may switch between generations (requiring a conversion harness), the mounting points may differ in position/number, etc. There's a lot that might change between the NV-10 and whatever comes after it.

And there's the point that something that changes in such a way would need to be re-designed to work with the NV-10, which means essentially two separate boards to design, manufacture, stock, and support (and would those be made for the CA-78/98 or other models as well?).


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #2872755 07/25/19 08:59 PM
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I surrender!! cry



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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #2872765 07/25/19 09:44 PM
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Sorry man, didn't mean to keep piling it on (OK, I did, but I couldn't really help myself!)


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #2872915 07/26/19 09:04 AM
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cool ha



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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #2873088 07/26/19 09:57 PM
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While shopping for an instrument, I heard Yamaha and Kawai dealers refer to two types of "hybrids"

Acoustic hybrid: Yamaha's silent or transacoustic pianos

Digital hybrid: Yamaha Avant grand series, or the Kawai NV10 for example


It is a better marketing tool for dealers to use the term "hybrid" in the name for the AG's or the NV10's because it highlights the fact there is something *different* about them compared with something purely digital with no actual piano parts like an action. Besides, the dictionary definition of the term hybrid fits with what the manufacturers are doing.

on a related note, I started another thread on N2 vs NV10 and decided to get the NV10. Got it for a very nice price too.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
MacMacMac #2873127 07/27/19 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
[F]rom the manufacturer's marketing point of view, it might seem useful to refer to his best pianos as hybrid.
The word's value counts for much in the public eye (maybe). And the definition is largely irrelevant.

That's the point. Also, it is an indication of the marketing departments' sleight of hand that they have so completely hoodwinked the general public by 're-purposing' the word so successfully. How has hybrid come to be in any way desirable? The dictionary gives the following synonyms:

Hybrid: half-caste, mongrel, bastard, curr, mule.

Hats of to the marketing departments of the world.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #2873128 07/27/19 05:26 AM
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Hi everyone,

I have had a Kawai NV10 for one year but sadly my current life circumstances require me to sell it. It is posted on PianoMart for 2/3 of what I originally paid, and remains in as-new condition. I would really appreciate if the ones visiting this forum could spread the word, as well as give me any tips as to how I may be able to sell this piano more quickly. My dealer is not willing to pay me more than half of what I originally paid. I appreciate any help – thank you .


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
toddy #2873134 07/27/19 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by toddy
The dictionary gives the following synonyms:

Hybrid: half-caste, mongrel, bastard, curr, mule.

Hats of to the marketing departments of the world.

You’re being just as bad IMHO with your selective unreferenced synonyms. I’ll be the same, a quality English dictionary definition is “You can use hybrid to refer to anything that is a mixture of other things, especially two other things.”

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