Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
115 registered members (Abdol, achoo42, Apoll0, AlphaBravoCharlie, apianostudent, Animisha, Ankee, 36251, 8ude, Antihero, 24 invisible), 1,559 guests, and 8 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 4 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys [Re: Randompianist2] #2872299
07/24/19 03:48 PM
07/24/19 03:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 885
Sheffield, UK
K
KevinM Online content
500 Post Club Member
KevinM  Online Content
500 Post Club Member
K

Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 885
Sheffield, UK
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Well anyone who plays for 8 hours a day is bound to end up injured, no matter what piano you play on. That is just crazy. What concert pianist practices anywhere near that length of time?


Originally Posted by Philosobyte
Just want to jump in and say that as someone who had formerly pursued a career in classical piano performance, practiced 10 hours a day, and played on many nice pianos at conservatory and competitions, I found the RM3 Grand II in Kawai's VPC-1 to be better than the PHA-50 in Roland's RD-2000.


From earlier in this thread.

Where does practising 10 hours a day fit then?


Last edited by KevinM; 07/24/19 03:50 PM.

Mendelssohn Song without Words Op19,2 and 19,6, Jensen Sehnsucht Op8,5. Chopin Nocturne C# Minor. Schumann Hasche Mann from Kinderszenen Op15,3. https://soundcloud.com/sheffieldkevin
DP: Kawai MP11SE. HP: Superlux HD681 EVO
(ad) SWEETWATER Lowest Prices
Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys [Re: pold] #2872300
07/24/19 03:49 PM
07/24/19 03:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 101
Tenerife-Canary Island-Spain
S
sorrownightingale Offline
Full Member
sorrownightingale  Offline
Full Member
S

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 101
Tenerife-Canary Island-Spain
pold...

PHA 50 pivot lenght is 22 cm Do you consider this shorter pivot lenght?
GFII is 24cm
N1,N2,N3 ~23 cm
GF-C ~21,5cm

Grand piano are between 20 and 25cm. Between 22 and 24cm the difference is neliglible for a physical matter

Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys [Re: KevinM] #2872303
07/24/19 04:01 PM
07/24/19 04:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 860
South Wales
C
Colin Miles Offline
500 Post Club Member
Colin Miles  Offline
500 Post Club Member
C

Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 860
South Wales
Originally Posted by KevinM
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Well anyone who plays for 8 hours a day is bound to end up injured, no matter what piano you play on. That is just crazy. What concert pianist practices anywhere near that length of time?


Originally Posted by Philosobyte
Just want to jump in and say that as someone who had formerly pursued a career in classical piano performance, practiced 10 hours a day, and played on many nice pianos at conservatory and competitions, I found the RM3 Grand II in Kawai's VPC-1 to be better than the PHA-50 in Roland's RD-2000.


From earlier in this thread.

Where does practising 10 hours a day fit then?



That guy is a software engineer. Perhaps he is exaggerating just a little? Classical piano performance is not the same as being a classical concert pianist.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys [Re: sorrownightingale] #2872328
07/24/19 05:41 PM
07/24/19 05:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,332
Dublin
johnstaf Offline
2000 Post Club Member
johnstaf  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,332
Dublin
Originally Posted by sorrownightingale
pold...

PHA 50 pivot lenght is 22 cm Do you consider this shorter pivot lenght?
GFII is 24cm
N1,N2,N3 ~23 cm
GF-C ~21,5cm

Grand piano are between 20 and 25cm. Between 22 and 24cm the difference is neliglible for a physical matter


I think the GF-Compact keys are shorter than length given above.

Most grand keys are considerably longer than 20 cm to the balance rail, with larger grands around 30 cm.

The actions on some pianos have such short keys that some pieces are difficult to play, but diminishing returns set in quite early when the key length is increased.


Last edited by johnstaf; 07/24/19 05:45 PM.
Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys [Re: sorrownightingale] #2872354
07/24/19 06:47 PM
07/24/19 06:47 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 268
P
pold Offline
Full Member
pold  Offline
Full Member
P

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 268
Originally Posted by sorrownightingale
pold...

PHA 50 pivot lenght is 22 cm Do you consider this shorter pivot lenght?
GFII is 24cm
N1,N2,N3 ~23 cm
GF-C ~21,5cm

Grand piano are between 20 and 25cm. Between 22 and 24cm the difference is neliglible for a physical matter


PHA 50 is 22cm? Are you sure? Then how long is the Hybrid grand? from the pic it looks at least 5 cm longer.

Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys [Re: pold] #2872356
07/24/19 07:00 PM
07/24/19 07:00 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,332
Dublin
johnstaf Offline
2000 Post Club Member
johnstaf  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,332
Dublin
Originally Posted by pold


PHA 50 is 22cm? Are you sure? Then how long is the Hybrid grand? from the pic it looks at least 5 cm longer.


Yes, it's 22cm. The "Hybrid" is probably around 26 cm. I don't know if anyone has measured it precisely.

Last edited by johnstaf; 07/24/19 07:02 PM.
Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys [Re: johnstaf] #2872360
07/24/19 07:17 PM
07/24/19 07:17 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 268
P
pold Offline
Full Member
pold  Offline
Full Member
P

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 268
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by pold


PHA 50 is 22cm? Are you sure? Then how long is the Hybrid grand? from the pic it looks at least 5 cm longer.


Yes, it's 22cm. The "Hybrid" is probably around 26 cm. I don't know if anyone has measured it precisely.


ok, if it's 22cm I think you guys are right, and PHA50 is good enough.

Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys [Re: Randompianist2] #2872378
07/24/19 08:22 PM
07/24/19 08:22 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 101
Tenerife-Canary Island-Spain
S
sorrownightingale Offline
Full Member
sorrownightingale  Offline
Full Member
S

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 101
Tenerife-Canary Island-Spain
pold, my advice is that you can't just guide from the pivot length, have to try the pianos for yourself!!

http://www.joflaherty.org/VPC1/images/IMG_5370VPC1.JPG from http://www.joflaherty.org/VPC1/images/thumbs.html

VPC1 =17,86cm pivot lenght and this is one of the best

Concert Pianist in VPC1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmrDjhjfTb8

Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys [Re: sorrownightingale] #2872386
07/24/19 08:41 PM
07/24/19 08:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,332
Dublin
johnstaf Offline
2000 Post Club Member
johnstaf  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,332
Dublin
Originally Posted by sorrownightingale
pold, my advice is that you can't just guide from the pivot length, have to try the pianos for yourself!!

http://www.joflaherty.org/VPC1/images/IMG_5370VPC1.JPG from http://www.joflaherty.org/VPC1/images/thumbs.html

VPC1 =17,86cm pivot lenght and this is one of the best

Concert Pianist in VPC1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmrDjhjfTb8


I find the action of the VPC-1 makes some repertoire very difficult to play comfortably because of the effective key length. I have an MP-10 but bought a Roland FP-90 because of this.

Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys [Re: johnstaf] #2872387
07/24/19 08:47 PM
07/24/19 08:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,618
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Kawai James  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,618
Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted by johnstaf
I find the action of the VPC-1 makes some repertoire very difficult to play comfortably because of the effective key length. I have an MP-10 but bought a Roland FP-90 because of this.


The MP10 used the "RM3 Grand" keyboard action, the VPC uses the better "RM3 Grand II" keyboard action. Mechanically, they are similar, however they are not the same - there is a gradually evolution in quality and responsiveness, similar to that of PHAIV-->PHA50 mentioned by Gombessa previously.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys [Re: Kawai James] #2872388
07/24/19 08:49 PM
07/24/19 08:49 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,332
Dublin
johnstaf Offline
2000 Post Club Member
johnstaf  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,332
Dublin
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by johnstaf
I find the action of the VPC-1 makes some repertoire very difficult to play comfortably because of the effective key length. I have an MP-10 but bought a Roland FP-90 because of this.


The MP10 used the "RM3 Grand" keyboard action, the VPC uses the better "RM3 Grand II" keyboard action. Mechanically, they are similar, however they are not the same - there is a gradually evolution in quality and responsiveness, similar to that of PHAIV-->PHA50 mentioned by Gombessa previously.

Kind regards,
James
x


The key front to balance pin distance is identical. I wasn't referring to any other aspect of the action.

Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys [Re: Randompianist2] #2872389
07/24/19 08:51 PM
07/24/19 08:51 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,618
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Kawai James  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,618
Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted by johnstaf
The key front to balance pin distance is identical. I wasn't referring to any other aspect of the action.


You believe that key pivot length is the only factor that influences key touch?


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys [Re: Kawai James] #2872392
07/24/19 08:55 PM
07/24/19 08:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,332
Dublin
johnstaf Offline
2000 Post Club Member
johnstaf  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,332
Dublin
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by johnstaf
The key front to balance pin distance is identical. I wasn't referring to any other aspect of the action.


You believe that key pivot length is the only factor that influences key touch?


I said in my previous post that I believe the key pivot length is a problem. I never suggested it's the only factor that influences key touch.

Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys [Re: Randompianist2] #2872399
07/24/19 09:20 PM
07/24/19 09:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,618
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Kawai James  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,618
Hamamatsu, Japan
Okay, thanks for the clarification.


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys [Re: johnstaf] #2872527
07/25/19 08:29 AM
07/25/19 08:29 AM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 62
germany
A
aphexdisklavier Offline
Full Member
aphexdisklavier  Offline
Full Member
A

Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 62
germany
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by johnstaf
The key front to balance pin distance is identical. I wasn't referring to any other aspect of the action.


You believe that key pivot length is the only factor that influences key touch?


I said in my previous post that I believe the key pivot length is a problem. I never suggested it's the only factor that influences key touch.


Yes johnstaf you mentioned that in a hundred postiings ...
BUT:
The respond/ reaction/uplift of the key of the GF is so slow that I find that action (with the longer pivot length) really bad. So there are really much more components that makes up a good action.
For me the longer pivot was no improvement at all! I think its so easy in forums to argue with pivot points but that says really nothing for me. I tried so many DPs and compared it to acoustic ones. At least I bought the (for you "vintage") VPC1 because of the best action in the pricepoint to about 5000€. (I am a professional musician and composer/ studied music/ playing violin and piano).

Last edited by aphexdisklavier; 07/25/19 08:32 AM.
Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys [Re: Colin Miles] #2872544
07/25/19 09:05 AM
07/25/19 09:05 AM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 18
P
Philosobyte Offline
Junior Member
Philosobyte  Offline
Junior Member
P

Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 18
Originally Posted by Colin Miles


That guy is a software engineer. Perhaps he is exaggerating just a little? Classical piano performance is not the same as being a classical concert pianist.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I pursued a career as a classical concert pianist when I was younger. I switched careers because I decided I wanted a more stable life.

Classical concert pianists who are still in their competition years typically practice 8 - 10 hours a day. Immediately before competitions, that can rise to 12 hours a day. This is the norm, not the exception. However, I can't speak for pianists who are successful on a national or international level and no longer need to participate in competitions.

Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys [Re: Randompianist2] #2872559
07/25/19 09:40 AM
07/25/19 09:40 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 101
Tenerife-Canary Island-Spain
S
sorrownightingale Offline
Full Member
sorrownightingale  Offline
Full Member
S

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 101
Tenerife-Canary Island-Spain
The proof that the VPC1 is an excellent piano keyboard and that the key pivot length is not the only factor that influences key touch (Kawai James +1) is Ravenworks (modified VPC1)

https://ravenworksdigital.com/product/the-studio-model-i/

What We Do to Modify the Kawai VPC1

Sizing of Key Pin & Balance Rail Bushings
Addition of Quality Piano Key-End Felt
Custom Key Dip
Squaring, Spacing, & Leveling of Keys
Proprietary Precision Friction Analysis & Weight Placement Determination
Proprietary Bismuth Key Weighting Procedure
The Manufacturing of Our Bismuth Weights
Key Weight Installation Procedure

but, the key pivot lenght is the same!!!

Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys [Re: Philosobyte] #2872562
07/25/19 09:45 AM
07/25/19 09:45 AM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 860
South Wales
C
Colin Miles Offline
500 Post Club Member
Colin Miles  Offline
500 Post Club Member
C

Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 860
South Wales
Originally Posted by Philosobyte
Originally Posted by Colin Miles


That guy is a software engineer. Perhaps he is exaggerating just a little? Classical piano performance is not the same as being a classical concert pianist.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I pursued a career as a classical concert pianist when I was younger. I switched careers because I decided I wanted a more stable life.

Classical concert pianists who are still in their competition years typically practice 8 - 10 hours a day. Immediately before competitions, that can rise to 12 hours a day. This is the norm, not the exception. However, I can't speak for pianists who are successful on a national or international level and no longer need to participate in competitions.


Sorry if I misunderstood you. Yes - I can understand the long practice immediately before a concert, but in general the following quote is I think more correct and for the purposes of this discussion at the level most people are at, more relevant

On average, a concert pianist practices at the piano about 3 to 4 hours a day. Before concert pianists get to the level and skill they are currently at, they can put in 8 hours or more of practice per day. The life of a concert pianist is filled with much more than just practicing at the piano.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys [Re: Philosobyte] #2872564
07/25/19 09:48 AM
07/25/19 09:48 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,067
J
Jethro Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Jethro  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,067
Originally Posted by Philosobyte
Just want to jump in and say that as someone who had formerly pursued a career in classical piano performance, practiced 10 hours a day, and played on many nice pianos at conservatory and competitions, I found the RM3 Grand II in Kawai's VPC-1 to be better than the PHA-50 in Roland's RD-2000. The Kawai has more realistic momentum/dynamic weight characteristics, and the Kawai is also a little heavier (although still not heavy enough, in my opinion). The Kawai action does indeed bottom out unrealistically softly, but for me, a soft bottom is the lesser of two evils.

I have not tried Grand Feel I or Grand Feel II, but I suspect they have similar momentum characteristics to the RM3 Grand II, given their mechanical similarities.

I am not a professional pianist but my experience with the VPC-1 was the same as yours and like you I also do not find the VPC-1's action heavy enough though it's about as heavy as you can get in a DG slab. I also found the action soft/mushy/ a little bouncy compared to the millenium 3 action on my grands. But I still think it is a fantastic practice platform if you don't have access to an acoustic.

Also for those wondering. 10 hours is the mean practice time for piano performance majors and was told the same thing by my teacher who is fairly recently received her Doctorate in Piano Performance.

Those long practice hours can lead to injury. I am currently treating a piano major getting his piano performance degree in my medical practice and he's been with me for at least 4 months. It's a slow process of recovery with bilateral wrist/elbow tendinitis. He changed technique midstream during his studies and was practicing this new technique too quickly and for too long a period of time (9 hours). Now he's out of school to recover for a year. He's about to go back for his last year this summer.

Last edited by Jethro; 07/25/19 09:55 AM.

Shigeru Kawai SK2 (2019), Kawai RX-2 (2007), Young Chang (1982), Kawai VPC-1 (2019), Yamaha P80 (2001), Korg C-50 (1995) , Roland Juno 1 (1988), Korg Poly 61 (1986), Lowrey Symphonic Holiday (1975)
Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys [Re: aphexdisklavier] #2872729
07/25/19 07:29 PM
07/25/19 07:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,332
Dublin
johnstaf Offline
2000 Post Club Member
johnstaf  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,332
Dublin
Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
Yes johnstaf you mentioned that in a hundred postiings ...


Are you suggesting I shouldn't post about my experience?

And, for the 101st time, I never suggested that the pivot was the only factor in the feel of an action, but actions with short pivots cause problems in certain repertoire, I honestly don't know how to make this any simpler.

Page 4 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  Piano World 

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
PianoSupplies.com is Piano World's Online Store
Please visit our store today.
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Lang Lang Video - Bach WTC Prelude
by apianostudent. 10/23/19 12:58 PM
Ignore if not a coffee drinker
by Tyrone Slothrop. 10/23/19 11:51 AM
Your best practices for scoring improvs
by Abdol. 10/23/19 10:15 AM
DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation
by TurboMatt. 10/23/19 10:13 AM
Weird old beginner piano songs
by DutchTea. 10/23/19 09:23 AM
What's Hot!!
Our August Newsletter is Out!
------------------
Mason & Hamlin Piano Factory Tour!

-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics194,692
Posts2,882,558
Members94,725
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1