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It is the momentum/dynamic weight characterstics mentioned here that is important to me. I think it is that, is what gives what I described as an organic* connection. That the piano had become an extension of me rather than something I played.

*organic - I missed my career in marketing

pold, about pivot lenght...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIIwhoPmI9A

Yamaha basic upright (B1) pivot lenght 16,77cm approximately

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSGQu3XfCAE

Yamaha NU1 (B1 no strings) same pivot lenght.

the upright action is most demanding!! and if you add to that shorter pivot within the realism of the action, you get best interpretation in a Grand!!

I think I need actual proof of this. My casio is 18cm and known for being a very short pivot length. 16.77 means playing near the fall board is hard and results in little ability to regulate volume.

On real pianos the hammer detaches from the key in the last moment and so there's no need for soft cushioning on the keys. The hammer will rebound and be caught by the backchecks but big part of the rebound energy is absorbed from the friction with the backcheck as well as from the elastic bend of the metal backcheck stem. However digital pianos don't have escapement to allow for the hammer to rebound and so there would be huge shock at the point of strike which would make the key to rebound and thus create very unnatural feeling. I guess that's why Kawai decided to create a lot of cushioning which will absorb the energy of the hammer. That's a problem with all digital piano actions so it's also why most of them are rather light compared to a real piano. As I have said numerous times, for some lucky reason the real piano actions was made up of many tiny workarounds and artifacts leading to a very natural and dynamic instrument. That can't be emulated without recreating the real piano action which is why hybrid instruments exist and there's market for them.

KevinM....

NU1 action:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2Ipwyo9TOxYRkQ2QV80RlJmY2c/edit?pref=2&pli=1


Kawai K2 action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rDiXZ3Rkbc

Essex EUP-108C (comparable to B1 action):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd8OcnUjqho&list=PLDoTrLsgAhIWG2bxXLdsGHqqla34JvYFR

Even if «  you dont realise it because you feel the hammer hitting the string » as you say
as long as you can’t feel it
even if it the hammer hits the string at the very last second
You will play on something that feel different

Which means a very soft bottoming feeling instead of a « classic » feeling
No matters how they put tons of mechanics in the process, you feel something different ( ok you will always feel something different, but I’m just trying to find the closest feeling)

as the message above from CyberGene... there are hybrids such as a NV10 ... which are very expensive pianos.
I tried it also and it feels VERY different from Grand Feel 2 key action.

Interesting. The distance from the end of the top part of the black key to the pivot point for a white key, from looking at those images looks be 3 cm or a little bit over. That would make the exposed part of the key with the fall board in place to be slightly less than 14cm. Most I've seen is 15cm so I suppose that is one way of dealing the issue, no point in exposing a part of a key that is unplayable.

Anyway, we are being diverted from the interesting discussion of comparison of roland and kawai actions.

Concert pianist Viktoriya Yermolyeva, she always uses roland

in RD-2000 (PHA50):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX6Oll-xvW4

in Roland RD-700GX (PHA II “Ivory Feel):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEkzEm_g83g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuWoOsMYUO8

Yes, I am not saying it's impossible, but you have to be careful about injuries also A big part of playing piano (or any other instrument) is improving without getting injured. Also think about it, do you think Paul Barton would prefer playing Beethoven Moonlight Sonata 3rd Movement & Chopin Etude Op.10 No.1 on an upright, or on a grand?
I am not saying it's impossible, but with a shorter pivot there is always the risk of getting this kind of result:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YSqk93g3Pc

With all due respect I don't think that the pivot point has really any relevance to injury. Technique, posture, general fitness, practicising carefully and stopping when you get any twinges - you can usually switch to something else - are far more important. And playing on lots of different pianos and being able to adjust to their differences is a bit part of learning to play the instrument properly. Learn to play on the instrument you have, then go and play on another and master that, then another.

Are you telling me that size doesn’t matter?

For you Pete, No

At this price level, I don't think you can go wrong with either Kawai action or Roland action. Pick the one you prefer and get practicing more!

Colin Miles +1

In NU1 or NU1x , N1,N1x, N2, N3, N3x and Kawai NV10 ( True hybrids piano action), injuries are due to poor practice techniques, as in any piano, or do you think you could not get injured in a Grand?. I study 4 or 5 hours everyday in my NU1 and I practice bodybuilding and fitness. Poor practice techniques = injuries in any instrument digital or acoustic. Obviously there are some digital pianos better than others ... some dissipate energy better in the final phase of the pulsation (bottom part), when the hammer hits, which is the one that could injure you, in acoustics the kinetic energy of the hammer is mostly dissipated in the strings. I am not saying that pivot lenght is not important, but in the range of pianos that have been named in it threads, is irrelevant. For example, VPC1 pivot lenght 17,33cm is considered one of the best for people who usually study in acoustics.
https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...-to-the-acoustic-pianos.html#Post2858007

EPW +1

The fact that people disagree means it's entirely subjective. I think the Roland is more realistic.

+1

Yes, I agree, but I am talking about playing the piano every day, 8 hours. You shouldn't underestimate the potential damage from a short pivot. If you play simple things you will be fine. If you play difficult stuff all the time on an upright piano, prepare yourself for some bad things you didn't expect. With a long pivot you can practice longer, and you can have a "rest easy" feeling when you play near the fallboard.
And in this particular case the PHA-50 is too short, if you see in the photo the pivot length in both the Roland Hybrid grand and the GFII is almost twice.

Well anyone who plays for 8 hours a day is bound to end up injured, no matter what piano you play on. That is just crazy. What concert pianist practices anywhere near that length of time?