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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Yes, the audio feed from the piano is louder than from the computer audio interface. But the solution is simple.
I have the level control on the latter is at around 2 o'clock. The piano feed level control is at around 10 o'clock.
Simple.

You can mitigate the risk by keeping your keyboard gain low, but there are three downsides. First, the +4dBu line level standard tops out at 1.23V. The -10dBV standard tops out at 0.773V. If the volume control is set to allow a higher voltage and you play something fortessimo you may overspec the mixer and damage it.

Second, you compress dynamic range by only using 0 to .773V of the 0 to 1.23V range, and even that assumes you have a way to set the keyboard gain to allow precisely 0.773V as the peak output. This may not matter at individual listening levels, but your range from pp to ff may be lessened at some settings, particularly if you set the keyboard gain conservatively to mitigate the first issue. It appears that the clipping level of the Shure mixer inputs is +5dBV per spec sheet. From that you could work backwards and figure out the max voltage level of gain at the keyboard to leave adequate headroom, but you would not know what volume level achieves that max voltage.

Third, to some extent, it defeats the ability to do gain staging between the two devices and audio amp, which I won’t describe as it would dominate the posting but is the least important of the three issues for individual listening. But it still is a downside of the setup.

If you are happy with your existing setup, that’s what matters, but if someone is looking for a new keyboard mixer, I would not recommend one with only consumer audio inputs. Such a mixer is optimized for karaoke or DJ usage with mics, CD players, and other music players.

But if the OP wants an uncluttered mixer without complex effects, panning, and routing features, a line mixer is the solution:

https://www.sweetwater.com/c1014--Line_Mixers

Of which the Denon DN-312X looks reasonable:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DN-312X--denon-dn-312x-rackmount-mic-line-mixer

It has 3 stereo channels for consumer audio, and 6 mono channels that have a switch to set for a mic level or pro line level. You would just use two of them for the left and right output of a keyboard if the keyboard has stereo samples, or one channel if it is a mono keyboard (despite having left and right outputs).

But I find the routing features of a small studio tabletop mixer to be worth the extra complexity of user interface.

Wow. I'm in awe. thumb

Now I have to digest this new info - with my dessert! laugh


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This is an excellent mixer:

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I would add that if all you want to do is switch between instruments and not layer the sounds from different instruments together, then all you really need is a passive switch box.


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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
I would add that if all you want to do is switch between instruments and not layer the sounds from different instruments together, then all you really need is a passive switch box.

I need layering.


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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Thanks for the dose of common sense.
Originally Posted by Bruce In Philly
There is nothing wrong or damaging to leave equipment on all the time. Nothing wrong at all.
Now all that's left is to convince the rest of the world.


Well, I expect this might simply be a generation and/or nationality thing.

I was raised to turn electrical appliances off after use, so the notion of leaving something switched on all day 'just in case I might wish to use it immediately' is a little strange.


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Actually, you turn a unit off "just in case" such as when there is a storm. It is not about if you use it.... it is about possible damage from electrical surges from storms. "On" should be the normal state... usage is not a factor.

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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Thanks for the dose of common sense.
Originally Posted by Bruce In Philly
There is nothing wrong or damaging to leave equipment on all the time. Nothing wrong at all.
Now all that's left is to convince the rest of the world.
Well, I expect this might simply be a generation and/or nationality thing.

I was raised to turn electrical appliances off after use, so the notion of leaving something switched on all day 'just in case I might wish to use it immediately' is a little strange.

Perhaps it was just a "your parents" thing.


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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
I would add that if all you want to do is switch between instruments and not layer the sounds from different instruments together, then all you really need is a passive switch box.

I need layering.


What are you exactly looking for Tyrone? What instruments are you connecting to it? Do you need aux sends? Do you need per channel EQ? Do you need multi-channel IO with PC? MIDI IN/OUT? Are you looking for something suitable for live performance or studio recording? Do you need per channel effects? Compression? etc.

There is simply no good answer to this until you specify your needs. I don't know any good quality mixer with only 4 inputs BTW. But there is an audio interface with 4 inputs that are fabulous.

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Mackie VLZ mixers are very popular with audio engineers who need small but decent mixers without paying too much.

Mixers can get rather expensive. If I had a spare €750,000 this is what I'd like.

https://ams-neve.com/88rs/

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Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
I would add that if all you want to do is switch between instruments and not layer the sounds from different instruments together, then all you really need is a passive switch box.
I need layering.
What are you exactly looking for Tyrone?

4 channels of audio mixing with 2 of them mic. Output either USB or optical (e.g., TOSLINK). I want the noise floor to be at the lowest possible level with the highest signal to noise ratio (SNR).

Originally Posted by Abdol
What instruments are you connecting to it?

1. Digital piano - stereo
2. another track of accompaniment - stereo (could be anything musical, even just a metronome, click track, or similar)
3. Left mic - mono (XLR w/ 48V phantom power)
4. Right mic - mono (XLR w/ 48V phantom power)

Originally Posted by Abdol
Do you need aux sends?

No idea.

Originally Posted by Abdol
Do you need per channel EQ?

This would be nice, mainly for #2 above.

Originally Posted by Abdol
Do you need multi-channel IO with PC?

No idea.

Originally Posted by Abdol
MIDI IN/OUT?

Don't think so since I assume MIDI on a mixer is for controlling the mixer itself? Or can MIDI be some sort of input a mixer processes from an audio perspective?

Originally Posted by Abdol
Are you looking for something suitable for live performance or studio recording?

Enthusiast level home-recording.

Originally Posted by Abdol
Do you need per channel effects?

This would be nice.

Originally Posted by Abdol
Compression?

Nope.

Originally Posted by Abdol
etc.

There is of course, "etc." For example, I already mentioned I want 24x7 reliability and no overheating.

Originally Posted by Abdol
There is simply no good answer to this until you specify your needs. I don't know any good quality mixer with only 4 inputs BTW.

Well, I am not hung up on having only 4 channels. Only saying that is all I need. For example, I am still considering the Behringer X18 and XR18 which each have 18 channels. If the mixer has more than 4 channels, then those channels will simply be unused. That's acceptable too.

Originally Posted by Abdol
But there is an audio interface with 4 inputs that are fabulous.

I will have an RME Babyface Pro being used for another purpose. I'd rather the mixer be standalone and not mix in with my audio interface. Otherwise, the audio interface will be doing too many simultaneous things, and it only has one DAC/ADC. I also don't want to get a second audio interface. That would be excessive.


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
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A Mackie 802-VLZ4 would meet your requirements. The multibus architecture would enable it to be the central control device for your home studio.


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- AUX send is for when you want to send a channel's out to a DSP (external effects). Usually, professional/expensive mixers have more than one AUX sends which you can loop it back to one of the inputs of the mixer.

- Multi channel IO with PC is nice. Each input/output of your mixer can be monitored, recorded separately! It was a feature for very expensive mixers but now you get it for mid-level or even entry-level mixers! So in your DAW you will have access to every channel of your mixer individually. I'd say get one with this feature.

- Low-end mixers usually come with one shared effects. You need an AUX-send to add your own effects through the method I explained.

- Compression is an invaluable addition to any mixer. Especially if you are doing vocals with MIC or acoustic instruments. Also, you can add compression to your Master/Main out, do a bit EQ which is almost like mastering your work live.

- MIDI is also really great because you can send commands from your keyboards to recall presets etc.

There are many more but not many mixers actually have all these features. Behringer stage box models that are mentioned here have most of these settings. I have not had any experience with Behringer but there is the exact same model from MIDAS which seems to have better pre-amps. It is MIDAS MR18 bot these stage boxes don't have a control surface. You need to remotely adjust their parameters. Also, My humble guess is that it will only sound better when you crank the gains to high values. So you should check if it is worth spending more money on better pre-amps or not.

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I have owned maybe 15 different small-scale mixers over the last decade. You don't mention your use case, so I'll just have to guess?

The XR-18 (no control surface) is freaking amazing in the bang for buck department. As are its siblings. A lightly used one is short money. Add an external router if you're going to gig out. As a simple audio interface it's worth the price of admission.

Add mixing, effects, etc. and I think it's an INSANE value. Too much functionality like most Behringer products these days. I'm thinking about a recent fling I had with a Deepmind 12 which made me learn that I don't have enough time in my life to learn all of my toys.

I've been buying the more recent Behringer products. Zero quality issues, period. People who rag on this should try some of their more recent stuff. Really.

If simple and analog is your thing, I've got a few of the Yamaha MG series. Short on features, long on quality. Can't go wrong with those.

Another super cool product of note? The Radial Key Largo. Insane build quality, ridiculously clean sound. Like, you won't want to use anything else ever after you hear it through good amplification. Also an audio interface.

I've had reasonable experiences with Presonus and a few other brands. I'm not aware of anything that really sucks in this category.

What might you be looking for?


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Regarding the Shure mixer above, I wrote:
Quote

It appears that the clipping level of the Shure mixer inputs is +5dBV per spec sheet. From that you could work backwards and figure out the max voltage level of gain at the keyboard to leave adequate headroom, but you would not know what volume level achieves that max voltage.

The dBV scale is a decibel scale for voltage where 0dBV is calibrated to 1V. Because decibels are a log[10] scale we get +5dBV = 20*log[10](V) or V = 10**(1/4) = 1.78V (rounded).

So the Shure mixer is spec’d not to clip until an input well exceeds 1.23V, the max voltage of the +4dBu standard. This would be encouraging that running a keyboard into it would not cause a problem. The caveat is that the input is still spec’d at -10dBV which means that internal electronic components do not have to be spec’d for higher inputs in order for the device to meet its spec. It is odd that they did not just spec it fully for +4dBu and even have a switch to toggle the sensitivity between +4dBu and -10dBV.


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