Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards SK Concert Grand samples vs EX samples on Kawai DP

I recently bought a Kawai CN37. It's a very nice digital piano. I tried the various piano samples, but at the end I always play with the default SK Concert Grand (a little modded with the Virtual Technician to generate more resonances). I'm starting to fall in love with that nice and warm sound that on some central notes reminds me a little of a Stainway sound.

But, about the EX piano sound, I found it not very pleasant to play at piano/pianissimo velocities. To me it's clear that it lacks at least one velocity layer for the pianissimo. And I think it sounds too "digital", too "synth"-like. Too much bass on lower notes, crystal clear and bright on higher notes but very weak sound on the central part of the keyboard when played at low velocities. It's as the low velocity sounds were low-pass filtered from an high velocity layer, so the engine cuts high frequencies as you play softer, but the character of the sound doesn't change. I noticed in all the demos on youtube, when the player set the EX grand as piano sound, he plays stronger, as he would be "afraid" to play pianissimo parts... Is it a coincidence?

Fortunately, the SK Concert Grand sound is very satisfying to me... more realistic, round and balanced sound on all the keyboard, and I guess it has more velocity layers, being that I feel the "character" of the piano when I play at piano/pianissimo too. And its Mellow variant is very nice to make a more intimate sound.

Now my question is: being that my CN37 uses the PHI engine, is it possible that on the better HI-XL engine the EX piano sound has more velocity layers? In other words, for those with Kawai DP with HI-XL engine, do you notice a lack of detail at low velocities with the EX piano sound, compared to the SK Concert Grand piano sound?

So, no one with a CA/CS/NOVUS series (or ES8, MP11, etc.) that could tell me if he have the same impression of lack of low velocity layer when playing with the EX samples at pianissimo velocity on the central/lower part of the keyboard?

P.S.: I made an experiment: I split the keyboard with the SK on the left and the EX on the right (just about the last 2 octaves), so that you have the warm roundness of the SK for the lower/central notes and the crystal clear sound of the EX on the higher notes. The higher notes don't need much detail in the pianissimo velocity, so It works nice... I called it the SK-Crystal piano...

I previously had a CS11. I liked the SK-EX sound a lot. The EX sound is just awful to my ears; raw, unrefined, metallic, too variable from note to note. Just nasty. You are not alone.

The SK sounds "far away" to me when I play it vs. the EX, though I agree PP velocity on the EX is lacking (in my limited 3 days of experience.) Can you share the VT settings you prefer with the SK?

So, if the EX sound lacks detail on the low velocities on both the PHI engine and the more advanced HI-XL engine, I think it's possible that the EX library of samples is practically the same on all the Kawai digital pianos, from the cheapest model to the more expensive one. Or maybe on the HI-XL engine, the EX samples are a little longer, but the number of velocity layers is always the same (2, max 3 layers).

P.S.: Why you don't have anymore the CS11? Did you sell it?

That's strange you hear the SK as a "far away" sound... With my headphones (and the SHS enabled) the sound is very strong and it's like the sound is all around you. Often I disable the SHS, because I prefer to hear a more clean stereo transition from the left channel to the right channel, when you play the keys from the left to the right, and I feel the sound is more clear with SHS off.
I will post my VT settings, but they don't change how far away you hear the sound... What model of Kawai digital piano do you have?

I have a CA58, just put it together.

Very good digital piano.

For the SK sound I use all the settings at default except the following:

Damper Noise: 7 (at default I cannot hear the damper noise at medium volume, so I raised it a little)
String Resonance: 9 (I like to hear the sympatethic resonances very much!)
Undamped String Resonance: 8 (this will give some nice overtones on the low&middle keys that you can hear clearly after a quick key release)

Sometimes I raise the Cabinet Resonance when I want a more natural reverberant sound. But this resonance could make your sound a little distant.

I'll try this all and see how it goes!

One question: what EX are each of you talking about?

On ES8, there is SK Concert Grand (which I believe is the SK-EX), the SK-5 Grand Piano and EX Concert Grand.

I used to like EX Concert Grand because if it is bright, SK Concert Grand not as much because it sounds mellower and SK-5 I liked the least.

However, I eventually started to dislike EX CG because it sounded uneven and my go-to one is SK-5 as it sounds more balanced and nicer to my ears. SK CG is OK.

I think there are more sample layers than two or three, more likely five or so. Yes, the samples are a bit longer on HI-XL. The EX sound had been Kawai's staple sound for some years and I think all of the sound engines featured sounds from the same sampling sessions, but with each iteration they increased the specification (layers, sample length and resonance implementation etc) to enhance playability and expressive potential.

I previously had a MP10 and couldn't enjoy the principle piano sounds. The CS11 of course features the much newer SK-EX and SK-5 samples, both of which I used but the SK-EX in particular has a pleasing warmth and can be impressively dynamic when needed too and is a far better balanced sound than the rough old EX.

The CS11 was sold because I was about to move house and I wasn't sure how I could accommodate it. I would also have to say I grew a bit tired of the action, only insofar as it bottoms out too 'squishily' for my taste. I like a more positive feeling of a definite stop at the bottom of the key travel and in that specific respect the Kawai wooden actions feel imprecise and mushy to me, although I would always say, if you enjoy their feel, then they are pretty much the best you can buy.

Hello magicpiano,



This is not correct. The size of the EX sample set differs depending on the HI, PHI, and HI-XL specification.



This is also not correct. HI-XL does indeed use longer samples, however the number of sample layers is also expanded.

Kind regards,
James
x

Hi, on my CN37 there is the SK ConcertGrand (that indeed has samples from an SK-EX) and the EX ConcertGrand, so to simplify when I talk about the SK, I mean the SK ConcertGrand (SK-EX), the EX for the EX ConcertGrand.

Thank you for sharing your impressions. So do you prefer the SK-EX to the SK-5 sound?

But when I play I have the feeling that, at least on my CN37 (PHI engine), the SK ConcertGrand has more velocity layers compared to the EX ConcertGrand. Is this possible or it's just that the SK-EX velocity layers are better balanced?

The SK-EX sample set it newer than the EX sample set - that may also be a factor.

Kind regards,
James
x

Do you mean that the number of velocity layers is the same for both but, being the SK-EX sample set newer, its layers may be better balanced/distributed compared to those of the EX?

Yes, that sounds plausible.

It's been a while since I've looked at the DPBSDP reports, but if we can't tell by ear or visually how many velocity layers there are, does it really matter? It could be two layers or 10, and in reality it only matters if it sounds convincing at whatever velocity you play.

Nice, thanks!