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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: tudor33sud] #2869452
07/15/19 09:26 AM
07/15/19 09:26 AM
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You might want to ask this in the (acoustic) piano forum? There's currently an active thread about the GL10 there right now.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Kawai James] #2869464
07/15/19 09:55 AM
07/15/19 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I do agree that outside hybrid actions the PHA-50 is among the most realistic. Certainly much better than Kawai wooden actions. Mind you, I prefer Kawai RH action over their wooden actions.


That just goes to show how subjective these things are. wink

James
x

Yeah, I often think there's no absolute truth in all these things we argue about all day here - touch, sounds - over and over again. But it's just all subjective and a matter of personal preference. This weekend I played three grand pianos, a large Blüthner, a Bechstein and a small grand, all of them being SO DIFFERENT in everything. The keys and the action were different in weight, key dip, feel, the pedal were different, the sound was so different, the dynamics and the tone color in relation to touch. I'd even say those were three different instruments smile And then we come here and argue until we're blue in the mouth about some subjective things. On the other hand, what would be the forum without that. I guess we'll soon know, when a subscription model is introduced. Dead!


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2869476
07/15/19 10:32 AM
07/15/19 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by tudor33sud

Slightly offtopic, but would you detail a little bit how you felt about Kawai GL10? And Kawai GL30? I'm seriously thinking about purchasing the real deal when moving out from my apartment, and I would have like a 35 square meter living room where I'd like to put up a baby grand(max 170cm). Do you think Kawai GL10 is satisfactory for home usage and better than a big upright? Was the sustain long enough? I'm contemplating about GL10-GL30, however I am not able to find a place where I could try them by myself... In that price range Feurich 163 is also available, but I think Kawai would be a better option on the long run. Thanks! And sorry for being offtopic.


It just felt good. You know when you see something, you try something, you see someone and you just feel it's good? That was it. The key dip is very gradual across its whole extension, the liftoff is really pleasant, the action isn't neither Yamaha-heavy nor CA98-soft, it's a middle ground I really like. I tend to find Kawai actions more suitable to my playstyle and technique, it's 100% subjective. Note - I haven't tried Feurich 163 nor GL20/30.

The sound - the usual warm, rich round sound Kawai offers, but by no means not bright enough (in fact, this was brighter than I expected). Again it's subjective and obvs you can get it voiced to your preference. Sustain felt just fine to me, just as much as the much questioned bass department. Yes, it's not a Bösendorfer or Steinway 9' war machine, but for the music I play, the size of my house and my level of play, it perfectly suits me. And yes, I would prefer it to any upright I've tried around that $ range, inc. U3, YUS5, K500 (haven't tried a Bechstein 116, but I ain't gonna put that much money on an upright).

I might be blasphemous, but I'd much rather have in my house a GL10/20 than a 6.5' beast. I PERSONALLY find their loudness excessive in normal homes, in addition to the fact that the sound can get fairly messy if you pedal a lot, for obvious sound dispersion (or lack thereof) reasons. Maybe I'll change my mind when I'll be able to play La Campanella blindfolded.

Given you've got space constraints - more than once I was astonished by the stuff I was hearing via NV10 speakers & headphones. Not because I'm any good, but because I was very much surprised by the depth and substance of its sound. I found a few acoustic uprights I've tried after it to be unpleasantly nasal.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Kawai James] #2869490
07/15/19 11:27 AM
07/15/19 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I do agree that outside hybrid actions the PHA-50 is among the most realistic. Certainly much better than Kawai wooden actions. Mind you, I prefer Kawai RH action over their wooden actions.


That just goes to show how subjective these things are. wink

James
x


Are you too having a different conversation than the rest us?


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Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Hecarim] #2869494
07/15/19 11:32 AM
07/15/19 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by TomLC
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I do agree that outside hybrid actions the PHA-50 is among the most realistic. Certainly much better than Kawai wooden actions. Mind you, I prefer Kawai RH action over their wooden actions.


That just goes to show how subjective these things are. wink

James
x


Are you too having a different conversation than the rest us?


I really need to learn to use the quote button more often but in my defense I am from my mobile phone and it's pain in the a** to try to edit a quoted text and remove parts of it in that flawed text area that won't ever be fixed on this forum. Or maybe once we start paying our subscriptions (those of us who would like to post), someone will make it a bit easier to post... Dream on.

So, I was answering to this:
Originally Posted by Hecarim
After spending like 3 hrs on hybrids and acoustics I went back to try some digitals and boy, they did feel a bit toy-ish, even the CA98, though its soft sponginess makes playing so easy, no wonder people love it. I remain of the opinion that the closest you can get to an acoustic / hybrid action-wise is an FP90.


Last edited by CyberGene; 07/15/19 11:32 AM.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2869499
07/15/19 11:47 AM
07/15/19 11:47 AM
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Oh, I see. I apologize.... eek


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: TomLC] #2869507
07/15/19 12:03 PM
07/15/19 12:03 PM
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NV10 Hands On - The NEW "PianoWorld Forums is unfriendly to Mobile" thread laugh


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2869515
07/15/19 12:26 PM
07/15/19 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
NV10 Hands On - The NEW "PianoWorld Forums is unfriendly to Mobile" thread laugh

Well, since you mentioned it, we can also include the other hot topic of late: "PianoWorld Forums is gonna be unfriendly" wink


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Oggierobdoggie] #2871249
07/21/19 05:13 PM
07/21/19 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Oggierobdoggie
Originally Posted by llyw
Not been around a while. Too busy playing amongst other things.

Thought I'd share how I've tried to deal with the 'ugly rear' problem.

Bought some 1mm black gloss HIPS, cut to size and holes drilled, and then screwed on top of existing rear panels. Total cost £8.00 for the sheet of HIPS.

[Linked Image]

Nice job llyw, looks great. What is the thickness of the HIPS panel? Did you remove the original fiberboard panel also?


Thanks Oggie

Already wrote that I used 1mm sheet. The original fibreboard is underneath. I cut two pieces, one for above (behind keys) and one to cover the two small pieces below (behind amp woofer and pedals). I didn't want to go any thicker because, at 1mm, it remains below the lip of the side panels of the piano.

I had considered using a 9mm piece to totally replace the fibreboard, but was unsure it would impact on sound. I also decided against as it would mean keeping the original fibreboard stored in the attic.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2871468
07/22/19 12:39 PM
07/22/19 12:39 PM
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Even with a nice done-up, glossy backside, it's still a strange shape let's be honest grin
Maybe would look nice to drape an elegant black suede cloth off the back or something.
Nonetheless your efforts are very impressive and shows your devotion for the NV10.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Kawai James] #2871591
07/22/19 07:07 PM
07/22/19 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Gombessa
I tried [SHS] pretty extensively yesterday I'm both pianist and sound modes, and couldn't tell a difference with it set to wide, forward, normal or off?


I do not hear a major difference when cycling through the difference SHS settings when using Pianist mode, however I definitely hear a difference in Sound mode.

Kind regards,
James
x



James, We’ve heard so much about this “incredible” binaural headphone experience, is it possible we can get it on the NV10 someday? I play 90% with headphones.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: TomLC] #2871603
07/22/19 07:46 PM
07/22/19 07:46 PM
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Hello Tom,

Originally Posted by TomLC
We’ve heard so much about this “incredible” binaural headphone experience, is it possible we can get it on the NV10 someday?


The NV10 does not support the ability to load in new sample data, so I'm afraid binaural sampling will not be possible with a future software update.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Kawai James] #2871701
07/23/19 03:53 AM
07/23/19 03:53 AM
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does the NV11 or CA99/79 can ?

a modular design would be great for customer of high end , hybrid piano and transacoustic piano but pehaps au commercial suicide for kawai .

but i think that would be great for example that a owner of a nv10 or aures could upgrade the "digital part" to benefit from new sound or sampling

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Kawai James] #2872006
07/23/19 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello Tom,

Originally Posted by TomLC
We’ve heard so much about this “incredible” binaural headphone experience, is it possible we can get it on the NV10 someday?


The NV10 does not support the ability to load in new sample data, so I'm afraid binaural sampling will not be possible with a future software update.

Kind regards,
James
x


If the NV11 had it, I would probably be willing to do a trade in. Of course, I would need to hear it first.


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Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: tblb] #2872008
07/23/19 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by tblb


but i think that would be great for example that a owner of a nv10 or aures could upgrade the "digital part" to benefit from new sound or sampling


This makes a lot of sense. Allow us to purchase the “module”, main board or whatever, and install it in our NV10. It could include new samples, binaural headphone app. Who knows? An update that can be produced for $100 and sold to us for $500 including installation. It would be good for me because every time I have upgraded it cost about $3000. (This last time - like $6500).

Last edited by TomLC; 07/23/19 05:49 PM.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2872014
07/23/19 06:14 PM
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Tom, you've laid out the very reasons that they do NOT do so. frown

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2872048
07/23/19 08:23 PM
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Well, Kawai could produce an update every year as they develop their next generation, and sell it to us every year. Cause, once you buy a $9-10,000 digital piano, it will require something pretty special to get you to buy a new one. The only upgrade I can imagine is to an acoustic grand. But entice me with a new and better sample, more realistic headphone sound? Maybe...


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2872145
07/24/19 06:33 AM
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While an intriguing idea, I think we don't see this very often because there are a number of associated costs that don't intuitively come to mind. Sure, why not just swap the mainboard? I've actually thought this to myself quite a bit--since Kawai will sell these for several hundred dollars as service items, what would it take if I waited for an NV20, bought that mainboard, replaced the one in the NV10, and did whatever is needed to rewire the speakers, etc.

In reality, there's a bunch of mundane hassle that makes doing so less ideal:

1. It's not a user serviceable module, and moving the piano, opening it, unwiring, unmounting, mounting the new part, and reversing all the steps is something that only a fraction of people would care to do, for everyone else it's a rather tedious/expensive service call.

2. The new part would have to be qualified for the rest of the components in the unit. I don't know what that would entail, but I envision stuff like FCC (or regional jurisdiction) certification, Bluetooth, RoHS, etc. What do you do with the old boards? Have users ship them back? What if they don't? You'll need a long term manual process to handle that.

3. The new part would have to maintain physical backwards compatibility. Maybe boards are already swap-able, but Kawai may want to change things as pedestrian as a wiring harness or the position/type of connectors. And now they have to think about whether that works in older equipment that can't be designed in parallel with the new board.

4. And if it can't be designed in parallel, then you need to branch/fork your hardware into a native V2 board and a retrofit V2 board? And support both? Another hw fork...

5. And what about new features that require different hardware off the main board (speakers, multi-channel input? etc.). Do you release new hardware modules for those too? Or decide on a per-product basis what to support, test for compatibility, and disable unsupported features based on legacy hardware?

6. What about UI changes needed to support/access the new features? Those would have to be ported over to the touchscreen (or whatever interface/display) too. And it seems to me that some people are already unhappy with the pace of Kawai's UI fixes/updates wink

7. And now that you've released this functionality, how long do you commit to supporting it? One generation? Three? Six years? What does that mean for your product development cycle and whether you hold off on new, incompatible features that can't be integrated into an older product? What's the acceptable lag time between a new product release and a retrofit board being available?

8. What will this mean for support? Does it increase costs of training techs (installing and fixing the new hardware), time to daignose, error rate in replacement parts, etc?

9. What percentage of users will opt for this kind of upgrade in order to make it, and all the operations/logistics needed to support it?

Any of these would be a potential headache, especially if it were a process retrofitted into the existing product line. Even in the best case scenario of future-proofing by building in purpose-made expansion capability, there are tons of examples where these go largely unused/unfulfilled. I'm thinking about the hidden expansion port in the original NES, the same with the N64, the "snap-on" hardware capabilities we're seeing in phones nowadays (Motorola, Essential, LG, Google project Ara)...

Maybe I'm just a pessimist smile


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2872152
07/24/19 06:55 AM
07/24/19 06:55 AM
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I honestly think that we should be looking outwards for improvements regarding the digital -sound engine- side of things. A great action is already there, so all we need from Kawai is a true soundboard experience and an audio interface; we can supply the rest.
If Kawai were to release a ‘grand piano’ Novus with a soundboard and an audio interface, I would need nothing else in terms of future upgrades from Kawai. I will simply use Pianoteq’s latest and greatest instead of buying a whole new piano looking -in vain- for that utopian state.
This notion that the on-board sound is by default more ‘immediate’ than running a VST to-and-from a computer just ain’t right. I bought into this notion and got me an LX-17. Roland claims that there’s some sorta scanner under the key bed for a higher level of sound precision/shaping, and I can tell you that my P-515 paired to Pianoteq blows the Roland out of the water in every sense. So imagine running Pianoteq through a real soundboard controlled by a real grand action. Give me the hardware, Kawai; I’ll take care of the rest!

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2872157
07/24/19 07:22 AM
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Actually, Steingraeber & Söhne have already done exactly that. They run Pianoteq through a transducer mounted on a grand piano soundboard.

https://www.steingraeber.de/2017/11/neues-video-transducer-am-resonanzboden/


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