Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
58 registered members (Animisha, Aurele27, AlphaBravoCharlie, Balezin Dmitry, Alex Hutor, 13 invisible), 1,109 guests, and 6 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Beethoven Sonata Op. 101 - trills #2871001
07/20/19 06:04 PM
07/20/19 06:04 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Orange Soda King Offline OP
6000 Post Club Member
Orange Soda King  Offline OP
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
I sight-read through this sonata and decided I want to learn it.

My biggest fear on a technical level are the trills in the finale. Trills have always been my weakness, but there are measures in the finale where the inner fingers trill while the outer fingers play a melodic note, or vice versa. I particularly noticed this difficulty when I attempted learning Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody 12... Any possible tips for these measures? I'll show pictures of some of them here:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Sorry for the watermarks, but you can still clearly see the measures/trills I'm referring to.

Any other insights for this sonata that anybody has? I'm excited to tackle it and hopefully in a couple months take it to a teacher for a couple lessons.

Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items, digital piano dolly, music theme party goods
Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 101 - trills [Re: Orange Soda King] #2871023
07/20/19 07:27 PM
07/20/19 07:27 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,001
Dublin
johnstaf Offline
2000 Post Club Member
johnstaf  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,001
Dublin
For passages like these I try to use rotation for the trills and get used to using the outer fingers in the direction opposite the rotation if necessary. For the second one I'd play two lines with the LH. It can also work to drop the hand on the melody notes so the rotation and dropping are like different motions. It's hard to describe better than this. If you can trill uninterrupted while raising and lowering your hand you'll see what I mean.

I don't think there's an easy solution, but they get easier. It took me a long time to get comfortable with similar (but easier) examples in Op. 81a. I suppose it's just one of those things we have to deal with in Beethoven... eek

Last edited by johnstaf; 07/20/19 07:32 PM.
Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 101 - trills [Re: Orange Soda King] #2871055
07/20/19 09:24 PM
07/20/19 09:24 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,519
New York City
pianoloverus Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,519
New York City
I would play the first trill using 212121212.

Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 101 - trills [Re: Orange Soda King] #2871060
07/20/19 09:42 PM
07/20/19 09:42 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,519
New York City
pianoloverus Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,519
New York City
You could PM Can Cakmur as he has played this sonata.

Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 101 - trills [Re: Orange Soda King] #2871080
07/20/19 11:46 PM
07/20/19 11:46 PM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 147
Detroit
F
Fidel Offline
Full Member
Fidel  Offline
Full Member
F

Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 147
Detroit
Measured trills in 32nd notes starting on auxiliary note.
1st one: 2121-1323 or 2121-1212
2nd one: 5353-5323
3rd one: 2121-3212 (there's no easy answer for this one)
4th one: 1212-1232 with the bottom notes from 4 to 5 instead 5-5

Played as 32nds makes it easy to align the trill with the accompanying 8th notes. Good luck, this is one heck of a masterpiece!


"the lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne." -- Chaucer.
Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 101 - trills [Re: Orange Soda King] #2871118
07/21/19 05:38 AM
07/21/19 05:38 AM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 63
R
rmns2bseen Offline
Full Member
rmns2bseen  Offline
Full Member
R

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 63
A little bit of a non-sequitur here, but it's always seemed to me that even on paper this passage looks a lot like the A minor fugue from WTC I. This is obviously Beethoven in his Bachian mode. There's your best starting point for getting trills and other ornamentation down.

Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 101 - trills [Re: Orange Soda King] #2871129
07/21/19 06:43 AM
07/21/19 06:43 AM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 63
R
rmns2bseen Offline
Full Member
rmns2bseen  Offline
Full Member
R

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 63
The third one I would play 2-3-2-3 with 1-2 for the Nachschlag and 1 on the following D.

Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 101 - trills [Re: Orange Soda King] #2871156
07/21/19 10:56 AM
07/21/19 10:56 AM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 272
S
Sidokar Offline
Full Member
Sidokar  Offline
Full Member
S

Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 272
I would play these starting on the main note to keep the melodic flow. So either as septuplets or in case of the first one for example if difficult you can skip the middle one and play as 2xtriplets. So that would be G sharp, A, G sharp (2,3,2) E with the 5th, G sharp, F sharp, G sharp (2,1,2). Full septuplet would be 2,3,2, A.3 with the E and then 2,1,2.

Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 101 - trills [Re: Orange Soda King] #2871168
07/21/19 12:06 PM
07/21/19 12:06 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,519
New York City
pianoloverus Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,519
New York City
Several posters seem to have suggested repeating the same note twice in sucession during the trill. I have never heard of this being allowable during a trill.

I checked two YT performances(Cakmur and Blechacz), and they both seem to play G#A-G#AG#F#G# on the first trill. This seems more reasonable than what I suggested no matter what fingering is used since there is so little time.

Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 101 - trills [Re: Orange Soda King] #2871176
07/21/19 01:09 PM
07/21/19 01:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 63
R
rmns2bseen Offline
Full Member
rmns2bseen  Offline
Full Member
R

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 63
I'll revise my little "contribution" here: it should probably be 2-3-2-3-2, so as to end on C#, then 1-2 on the nachschlag and then 1 on D. But what do I know. I'm not a concert pianist.

Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 101 - trills [Re: pianoloverus] #2871185
07/21/19 01:35 PM
07/21/19 01:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 63
R
rmns2bseen Offline
Full Member
rmns2bseen  Offline
Full Member
R

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 63
Originally Posted by pianoloverus

...

I checked two YT performances(Cakmur and Blechacz), and they both seem to play G#A-G#AG#F#G# on the first trill. This seems more reasonable than what I suggested no matter what fingering is used since there is so little time.

Yeah I would imagine that the fingering there would be something like a 2-3 pattern too to begin the trill so that 5 could play the E in the treble and then use 1-2 playing the F#-G# afterbeat. But it's true, it's going a little fast for on-the-fly analysis. At least for me.

Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 101 - trills [Re: Orange Soda King] #2871401
07/22/19 07:25 AM
07/22/19 07:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 286
Weimar, Germany
CanCakmur Offline
Full Member
CanCakmur  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 286
Weimar, Germany
Dear Ethan,
The trills are really nasty. In fact I wrote down the trills (which I normally don’t really like to do). For me what works is to group it as a 16th triplet and 4 32nd notes. Starting from the main note of course. When you have 8th notes in counterpoint, this way you know exactly where they fall on the trill. Lots of ugly practice, hammering out the trills in very slow tempo and experimenting with different hand positions do help unfortunately wink. When I practice this, I always put two accents, one for the triplet and one for the 4 32nd notes. As you get more comfortable, reduce the accent until it is completely uniform.

I didn’t really try any fancy fingerings but used very often 2-1 for right hand when it starts on a black key instead of 2-3.

Hope this helps, it is always difficult to write these stuff down! And take care. Let us know how it goes smile


"Schubert's music brings tears to our eyes, without any questioning of the soul: this is how stark and real is the way that the music strikes us."
Adorno
Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 101 - trills [Re: Orange Soda King] #2871412
07/22/19 09:00 AM
07/22/19 09:00 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Orange Soda King Offline OP
6000 Post Club Member
Orange Soda King  Offline OP
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Thank you all for your feedback! I'm looking forward to my practice sessions later today, and I'll definitely spend some quality time on these particular spots.

Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 101 - trills [Re: CanCakmur] #2871577
07/22/19 06:03 PM
07/22/19 06:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 63
R
rmns2bseen Offline
Full Member
rmns2bseen  Offline
Full Member
R

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 63
Originally Posted by CanCakmur
...
The trills are really nasty. In fact I wrote down the trills (which I normally don’t really like to do). For me what works is to group it as a 16th triplet and 4 32nd notes. Starting from the main note of course.
...

Interestingly enough, that's what the oft-maligned von Bülow-Lebert edition recommends.

Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 101 - trills [Re: Orange Soda King] #2871613
07/22/19 08:13 PM
07/22/19 08:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Orange Soda King Offline OP
6000 Post Club Member
Orange Soda King  Offline OP
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Although I'm learning from an Urtext, I definitely plan on looking at various other editions just to try out what other pianists suggest.

Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 101 - trills [Re: Orange Soda King] #2871675
07/23/19 12:41 AM
07/23/19 12:41 AM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 63
R
rmns2bseen Offline
Full Member
rmns2bseen  Offline
Full Member
R

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 63
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Although I'm learning from an Urtext, I definitely plan on looking at various other editions just to try out what other pianists suggest.

Yeah the old von Bülow-Lebert edition (Schirmer) does have a place in my heart because it's the first I became familiar with. In spite of a certain 19th century "quirkiness" here and there - and in spite of the fact that I think it gets Op. 27 no. 2 wrong in the first movement - the suggested fingerings and execution tips are often pretty helpful. And comparatively it's pretty cheap.

Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 101 - trills [Re: rmns2bseen] #2871716
07/23/19 05:23 AM
07/23/19 05:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 286
Weimar, Germany
CanCakmur Offline
Full Member
CanCakmur  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 286
Weimar, Germany
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by CanCakmur
...
The trills are really nasty. In fact I wrote down the trills (which I normally don’t really like to do). For me what works is to group it as a 16th triplet and 4 32nd notes. Starting from the main note of course.
...

Interestingly enough, that's what the oft-maligned von Bülow-Lebert edition recommends.



I had no clue! Well of course that was a time when they were crazy about notating everything as detailed as possible.


"Schubert's music brings tears to our eyes, without any questioning of the soul: this is how stark and real is the way that the music strikes us."
Adorno
Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 101 - trills [Re: CanCakmur] #2871750
07/23/19 07:06 AM
07/23/19 07:06 AM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 63
R
rmns2bseen Offline
Full Member
rmns2bseen  Offline
Full Member
R

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 63
Originally Posted by CanCakmur
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by CanCakmur
...
The trills are really nasty. In fact I wrote down the trills (which I normally don’t really like to do). For me what works is to group it as a 16th triplet and 4 32nd notes. Starting from the main note of course.
...

Interestingly enough, that's what the oft-maligned von Bülow-Lebert edition recommends.



I had no clue! Well of course that was a time when they were crazy about notating everything as detailed as possible.

grin Ain't that the truth. There's hardly a phrase (in the "major" works anyway) that they don't annotate..or offer up a Beethovenolatrous comment about.

Re: Beethoven Sonata Op. 101 - trills [Re: rmns2bseen] #2871753
07/23/19 07:12 AM
07/23/19 07:12 AM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 482
Ireland
Sibylle Online content
Full Member
Sibylle  Online Content
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 482
Ireland
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Beethovenolatrous...

ha ha ha

Learned a new word. grin


Sibylle


"Not a shred of evidence exists in favour of the idea that life is serious." -Brendan Gill

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
PianoSupplies.com is Piano World's Online Store
Please visit our store today.
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Long Distance Piano Moving
by jojousa. 08/22/19 10:20 PM
A Scale Per Day or Per Week or Per...
by writebynight. 08/22/19 10:13 PM
1998 C1 vs. 2016 CG1
by inna_denver. 08/22/19 07:21 PM
What's Hot!!
Mason & Hamlin Piano Factory Tour!
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics193,681
Posts2,861,685
Members94,222
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1