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How to decide touch weight #2869142
07/14/19 04:46 AM
07/14/19 04:46 AM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 61
San Francisco Bay area
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Coda9 Offline OP
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Coda9  Offline OP
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My ‘51 Grotrian Steinweg Will be getting new hammers and action regulated — how do I decide numbers of touch wait for this instrument ? I think right now the touch is rather light . But I like fast passage work and don’t want to make the Touch too heavy Does anyone have info about standard touch weight for Grotrian?
And is there anyway I can do a lay persons assessment of touch weight as the keyboard is now before regulation ? Is there someway to stack coins on the k and estimate touch waiting by how many coins ?

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Re: How to decide touch weight [Re: Coda9] #2869154
07/14/19 07:49 AM
07/14/19 07:49 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,776
New York City
pianoloverus Online content
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You need to be careful about relying too much on touch weight measurements alone. I cannot explain all the details clearly but I know that touch weight is not considered too significant in terms of how heavy or light and action feels. IOW it's possible for a piano to have a low touch weight and still feel heavy. Perhaps another poster will elaborate on this.

That being said I think the standard touch weight on high quality pianos is usually in the 48-52 range and gets lighter as one goes up the keyboard.

Re: How to decide touch weight [Re: Coda9] #2869178
07/14/19 09:42 AM
07/14/19 09:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 623
Rockville, MD
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[quote=Coda9] My ‘51 Grotrian Steinweg Will be getting new hammers and action regulated — how do I decide numbers of touch wait for this instrument ? I think right now the touch is rather light . But I like fast passage work and don’t want to make the Touch too heavy Does anyone have info about standard touch weight for Grotrian?
====SNIP====[/quoteI
IMO the answer depends... on you, where you play, and your preferences as much as any standard for Grotrian pianos.

Do you play professionally?
If you do, and you are a "classical" pianist, or art music pianist to use another term, Steinway dominates the field. (Yes, I know there are others, but really, most of the time when I play outside my studio in a classical venue, it's on a Steinway).

If that is the case, you might want to have your Grotian regulated to be commensurate with the latest NY Steinway measurements... not just for touch weight but also for dip, height of sharps above the naturals. The keyboard will be closer to what you would play in concerts.

If you play primarily for your own pleasure and anyone you might to listen to you in your home, really, I think, it's up to you... within some reasonable range. I defer to the technicians who might be reading for Grotrian specs.

Just my opinion.


Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
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Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")
Re: How to decide touch weight [Re: Seeker] #2869192
07/14/19 10:37 AM
07/14/19 10:37 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,776
New York City
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Originally Posted by Seeker

Do you play professionally?
If you do, and you are a "classical" pianist, or art music pianist to use another term, Steinway dominates the field. (Yes, I know there are others, but really, most of the time when I play outside my studio in a classical venue, it's on a Steinway).

If that is the case, you might want to have your Grotian regulated to be commensurate with the latest NY Steinway measurements... not just for touch weight but also for dip, height of sharps above the naturals. The keyboard will be closer to what you would play in concerts.
Is that possible? I have never heard of having a non Steinway regulated so it plays like a Steinway. Wouldn't changing the touch weight be an expensive and complicated procedure?

Re: How to decide touch weight [Re: Coda9] #2869218
07/14/19 11:30 AM
07/14/19 11:30 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 159
Portland, Oregon, USA
Emery Wang Offline
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Emery Wang  Offline
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Posts: 159
Portland, Oregon, USA
Pianolover is right, touch weight is not a good way to judge how the piano action will feel. My digital's touch weight is about 10g heavier than my acoustic, but the digital feels much lighter to play. I think it's mostly about inertia and friction. Assuming things are well lubricated and not binding, you can deal with inertia by making the hammers heavier or lighter or changing hammers. You could also move the lead weights in the keys around, or change the fulcrum point by moving the capstan back and forth. But these are all major changes to your piano requiring piano surgery. I'd try other less invasive means first.

One way to make your action heavier through adjustments is to increase the hammer blow distance, and also to have your dampers lift sooner. These are easily reversible changes that your tech can try.

As for a "standard" set of measurements for your piano, I don't think there is one that would be meaningful for your particular piano, as adjustments vary from piano to piano and depend on what each pianist prefers.

Last edited by Emery Wang; 07/14/19 11:35 AM.

Kawai MP11SE
Kawai GL10
Re: How to decide touch weight [Re: Coda9] #2869246
07/14/19 01:08 PM
07/14/19 01:08 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,966
SE USA
WhoDwaldi Offline
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WhoDwaldi  Offline
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SE USA
There's damper timing, also. If they lift too early, it makes the action heavier.

I had a full regulation with touch weight modification about six months ago (aluminum capstans, "accelerated" balance rail punchings, easing key bushings, other lubrication and magic), which made a huge difference in inertia. At one time, my down weight was around 60 grams. A previous tech got it to about 54 with less extensive regulation. Now it's around 48-50. This is a an older Kawai action, which inherently won't ever feel light as a feather, but it is much smoother and more manageable, now.

Of course, Grotrians are a whole other matter (with quality Renner actions, if newer?). I would suspect you don't want replacement hammers that are too heavy.

You can order a set of weights and futz around with measuring for your own information (to make your piano tech hate you 🤣).

https://www.howardpianoindustries.com/gram-weights-brass/


WhoDwaldi
Howard (by Kawai) 5' 10"
Re: How to decide touch weight [Re: Coda9] #2869274
07/14/19 02:49 PM
07/14/19 02:49 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,966
SE USA
WhoDwaldi Offline
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SE USA
Oh, and here's a video about measuring touch:



Nickels are 5 grams and pennies are 2.5 (after 1983).


WhoDwaldi
Howard (by Kawai) 5' 10"
Re: How to decide touch weight [Re: Coda9] #2869275
07/14/19 02:52 PM
07/14/19 02:52 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 159
Portland, Oregon, USA
Emery Wang Offline
Full Member
Emery Wang  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 159
Portland, Oregon, USA
WhoDWaldi, I was interested in aluminum capstans myself. Did you go with WNGs? I was concerned about key return slowing, however, if the capstans became too light. Did your tech discuss that with you?

Also, what were the accelerated punchings? Was it just cutting a piece off the front of the existing punching?

Thanks.

Last edited by Emery Wang; 07/14/19 03:00 PM.

Kawai MP11SE
Kawai GL10
Re: How to decide touch weight [Re: Emery Wang] #2869277
07/14/19 03:03 PM
07/14/19 03:03 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,966
SE USA
WhoDwaldi Offline
2000 Post Club Member
WhoDwaldi  Offline
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,966
SE USA
Originally Posted by Emery Wang
WhoDWaldi, I was interested in aluminum capstans myself. Did you go with WNGs? I was concerned about key return slowing, however, if the capstans became too light. Did your tech discuss that with you?

Also, what were the accelerated punchings? Was it just cutting a piece of the front of the existing punching?

Thanks.


My tech likes WNG products, so I'm sure that's what the capstans are. No, my up weight is fine, and the return is fast. My action has assist springs on the whippens, so there is less leading in keys than is often the case.

Yes, the accelerated punchings are felts shaped like a letter "D" instead of donut. I think they were purchased that way and replaced the original round ones.


WhoDwaldi
Howard (by Kawai) 5' 10"
Re: How to decide touch weight [Re: Coda9] #2869301
07/14/19 04:55 PM
07/14/19 04:55 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 61
San Francisco Bay area
C
Coda9 Offline OP
Full Member
Coda9  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 61
San Francisco Bay area
I play classical literature right now mostly Chopin, So I’m traveling up and down the keyboard speedily. His hammer replacement and regulation job actually is aiming to prepare the instrument for sale . I’m desperately seeking a big long Steinway . Hoping to give in-house concerts . Three years ago I restarted playing music after a 25 year lapse . This Grotrian was a gift of bequeathal , so I didn’t Go trying out pianos and decid on this one.
So where I’m seeking advice is a generally comfortable touch weight thinking of another person wanting to purchase this instrumentt

Re: How to decide touch weight [Re: Coda9] #2869302
07/14/19 05:10 PM
07/14/19 05:10 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,966
SE USA
WhoDwaldi Offline
2000 Post Club Member
WhoDwaldi  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,966
SE USA
Originally Posted by Coda9
I play classical literature right now mostly Chopin, So I’m traveling up and down the keyboard speedily. His hammer replacement and regulation job actually is aiming to prepare the instrument for sale . I’m desperately seeking a big long Steinway . Hoping to give in-house concerts . Three years ago I restarted playing music after a 25 year lapse . This Grotrian was a gift of bequeathal , so I didn’t Go trying out pianos and decid on this one.
So where I’m seeking advice is a generally comfortable touch weight thinking of another person wanting to purchase this instrumentt


I think "medium" is considered around 50 grams down weight (and the subjective feeling that a particular piano at that is medium), which would appeal to most serious pianists and buyers.


WhoDwaldi
Howard (by Kawai) 5' 10"

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