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Re: Suggestions? - Removing Victorian Plate [Re: UnrightTooner] #2867912
07/10/19 08:24 AM
07/10/19 08:24 AM
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Posts: 6,017
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Wedges, Sledges, and Clamps (Oh, MY!!!)

Sorry to disappoint. Took another look and will be able to chisel out a space for removing the bass bolt. There is enough clearance for the shorter screws at that end.

But oh, it warms my blood to think of a piano and a sledge at the same time - and all for a good cause!


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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Re: Suggestions? - Removing Victorian Plate [Re: UnrightTooner] #2867922
07/10/19 09:10 AM
07/10/19 09:10 AM
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You could of course begin the process, and then have an unexplainable but catastrophic failure that renders the project impossible to complete, despite your best efforts. Then the sledge would become very useful.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Suggestions? - Removing Victorian Plate [Re: P W Grey] #2867967
07/10/19 12:01 PM
07/10/19 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by P W Grey

Piece of cake.
Pwg


(He says as he runs the other way)
laugh grin

Seriously, an elegant solution!


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
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Re: Suggestions? - Removing Victorian Plate [Re: UnrightTooner] #2868019
07/10/19 02:35 PM
07/10/19 02:35 PM
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Scary at first, but it works. And when the time comes to glue it all back together its just like closing a door. Precision alignment and keeps it there.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Suggestions? - Removing Victorian Plate [Re: UnrightTooner] #2868044
07/10/19 03:44 PM
07/10/19 03:44 PM
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Provided, of course, that the sides do not crack, and that you clear away all the splinters so you can successfully dry fit it before you glue it back.


Semipro Tech
Re: Suggestions? - Removing Victorian Plate [Re: UnrightTooner] #2868053
07/10/19 04:29 PM
07/10/19 04:29 PM
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Yes indeed!

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Suggestions? - Removing Victorian Plate [Re: UnrightTooner] #2868866
07/12/19 07:51 PM
07/12/19 07:51 PM
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Bradford County, PA
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Got 'er out! I chiseled a clearance slot for that one bolt and trimmed some bottom posts a little, too. Had to cut 1/4" off the bass end of the bass bridge. Couldn't figure out how they could have assembled it that way. Anyhoo, the pinblock is 2-1/4 inches thick, with the top 3 plies 1/4" each. Those are on a 1-1/2" plank. Holes are drilled 1-1/2" deep.

I'll probably get one of those handheld drill guides with a stop and bore down 1-1/2" with a forstner bit, using an 1-1/2" block to support as needed as I go.

Other ideas?


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Suggestions? - Removing Victorian Plate [Re: UnrightTooner] #2868978
07/13/19 12:50 PM
07/13/19 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner


I'll probably get one of those handheld drill guides with a stop and bore down 1-1/2" with a forstner bit, using an 1-1/2" block to support as needed as I go.

Other ideas?


So what's the goal here? Plug and redrill?

I would rout out the pin fields and epoxy in new pinblock material into the existing structure. And reinforce with long screws.

Pwg

Last edited by P W Grey; 07/13/19 12:52 PM.

Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Suggestions? - Removing Victorian Plate [Re: P W Grey] #2869147
07/14/19 06:07 AM
07/14/19 06:07 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,017
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner


I'll probably get one of those handheld drill guides with a stop and bore down 1-1/2" with a forstner bit, using an 1-1/2" block to support as needed as I go.

Other ideas?


So what's the goal here? Plug and redrill?

I would rout out the pin fields and epoxy in new pinblock material into the existing structure. And reinforce with long screws.

Pwg


Good question, good place to start. "What is the goal?"

This is more than a "project" piano. It is also my own family's heirloom. The goal is to make it a piece of living history, not only to remind the family of the part this piano has played in the music of the family, coming from a matriarch (my mother-in-law). But also the part pianos have played in a technical skill developed over decades by a patriarch (myself). This piano can be a source of conversation and remembrance for my daughter and her children, perhaps even my great-grandchildren. But if it is not also a musical instrument in good condition, it could easily become just one more old upright in a landfill. ;(

So. I want to replace the entire pinblock. Splitting the ornate, victorian case open as if slaughtering a hog is not going to happen. There are other parts of the case that will surely be damaged when trying to do so. But I am not going to do a complete refinishing, either. There is some memorable patina that really needs to be left, such as when a younger brother scrawled an older sister's name into the case with a pen knife. I'm going to leave that legible. wink

I have read about using a router to either remove an entire pinblock or portions of it in an upright. With my own experience in woodworking I see a problem with it. Routing 1-1/2" inches at one pass will cause a lot of heat and smoke and poor cuts. Making successive passes will result in uneven edges and bottoms, unless elaborate templates are used. So my thoughts are to use a forstner bit and a drill guide with a stop. I still will not be able to bore all the way to the sides, not even as far as the last tuning pin holes, due to the sides of the case and the width of the tool. For that I expect to use my Fein multi-tool, chisel, scrapers, but hopefully not filler.

But I am open to other ideas. smile


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Suggestions? - Removing Victorian Plate [Re: UnrightTooner] #2869177
07/14/19 09:36 AM
07/14/19 09:36 AM
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Posts: 2,348
Old Hangtown California
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Gene Nelson Online content
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The last upright block I did I started with a skill saw.
Removed the case top cover (probably similar to how you considered removing the panel on yours)
Then scribed a line to match the thickness of the new block plus a hair.
Set the saw for full depth of cut and cut into the full length of the existing block.
Then reset the saw depth of cut to match the thickness of the new block plus a hair and cut on the surface of the existing block perpendicular to previous cut the full length of existing block to match the previous cuts depth.
Then took the saw to the ends and cut as close to the sides as possible.
This removed about 50% of the block.
Plus it left two end pieces with plate bolt holes to use for plate height reference and position location.
The rest I removed with a Rigid multi tool.
I was fortunate the plate flange was straight.
Laid in the new block and marked up all the holes, drilled and set it in with West System epoxy.


RPT
PTG Member
Re: Suggestions? - Removing Victorian Plate [Re: UnrightTooner] #2869179
07/14/19 09:42 AM
07/14/19 09:42 AM
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Old Hangtown California
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Gene Nelson Online content
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Don’t know if you get the PTG journal or not but the guy that has been writing the “small shop big results” article had a procedure in an early edition about using a router and it looked like a reasonable alternative that didn’t cause heat or smoke problems.
Many rebuilders say the inserts are a better way to go. Didn’t do it that way myself, I replaced the entire block.


RPT
PTG Member
Re: Suggestions? - Removing Victorian Plate [Re: UnrightTooner] #2869189
07/14/19 10:22 AM
07/14/19 10:22 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,017
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Thanks Gene. I was hoping you would chime in. smile

No, I don't get the journal. Much to consider. I won't start tearing out the old block until I have the new blank here and measure how thick it really is. That will give me some time to think and ponder. I plan on using plastic resin glue. I want plenty of time to get things set right.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Suggestions? - Removing Victorian Plate [Re: UnrightTooner] #2869215
07/14/19 11:27 AM
07/14/19 11:27 AM
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Old Hangtown California
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Gene Nelson Online content
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I do have a couple of pics and I’ll post them if I can figure how to do it
But they are not very comprehensive


RPT
PTG Member
Re: Suggestions? - Removing Victorian Plate [Re: Gene Nelson] #2869227
07/14/19 12:02 PM
07/14/19 12:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,017
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
I do have a couple of pics and I’ll post them if I can figure how to do it
But they are not very comprehensive


OK, but I understood from your description just fine. smile


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Suggestions? - Removing Victorian Plate [Re: UnrightTooner] #2869232
07/14/19 12:28 PM
07/14/19 12:28 PM
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Old Hangtown California
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Gene Nelson Online content
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[Linked Image]
[img]http://thumbnail-1jpeg[/img]
hopefully the pics will post.
Ok but for anyone else - you can see I left the end pieces of the original block for height and location reference but will need to deal with the lowest three bass tuning pin holes - probably will just plug and redrill.
I also like using a full block rather than inserts because I can redrill all of the plate screw holes and pressure bar screw holes etc.
the old block was split and in bad shape.


RPT
PTG Member
Re: Suggestions? - Removing Victorian Plate [Re: Gene Nelson] #2869265
07/14/19 02:05 PM
07/14/19 02:05 PM
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Gene Nelson Online content
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Well, it don’t appear my effort to post pics worked. Sorry.
If anyone’s interested and can tell me how to post pics I have a couple.


RPT
PTG Member
Re: Suggestions? - Removing Victorian Plate [Re: Gene Nelson] #2869297
07/14/19 04:42 PM
07/14/19 04:42 PM
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P W Grey Offline
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Chuck Behm has published some great articles on the routing out technique. Definitely don't want to rout deeply in one pass. Basically involves making templates for each section and progressively routing down using the templates as a guide. I would seriously consider this method vs total PB replacement (I see that as significantly more complicated with resultant fitting to the plate, etc.

Another viable treatment is the epoxy "fill and drill" method. Fill the holes to the top (topping off as needed due to absorbtion, etc), let cure, and drill new holes for the size pin you want to use. (My experience has been that roughly .009" - .011" under the pin size makes a good fit. (YMMV) Very hard to tell this from a new block. It is a widely accepted conservation technique among conservators.

Just a couple of well used ideas.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Suggestions? - Removing Victorian Plate [Re: UnrightTooner] #2869418
07/15/19 07:10 AM
07/15/19 07:10 AM
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Bradford County, PA
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Haven't seen the articles, but I imagine routing out sections of a grand pinblock would be easier than replacing the entire plank and fitting, not only to the plate, but to the case also. But an upright is different. It's not like you need to fit to the case, just make sure there is no interference. Once the plank if fitted to the plate and the bolt holes are bored, it's gotta go in the right place on the back.

Then there is the laminated grain of the existing pinblock to deal with. When routing (routering?) you will always be cutting end grain regardless of which direction you are working. But if instead you bore straight down with a forstner bit, you are working nice, easy face grain.

Another possibility, if you have the sides taken off, is to use a hand power planer. It would take some finesses to get the thickness right. Finishing with a disc sander would help.

So I am leaning toward the drill guide and forstner bit for removing 1-1/2" of existing pinblock, finishing with a multi-tool.

But has anyone here actually used the router/template method on an upright? Reading an article is one thing, actually trying it out is another.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Suggestions? - Removing Victorian Plate [Re: UnrightTooner] #2869534
07/15/19 01:15 PM
07/15/19 01:15 PM
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Joe Gumbosky
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"The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -Marcus Aurelius
Re: Suggestions? - Removing Victorian Plate [Re: daniokeeper] #2869606
07/15/19 05:31 PM
07/15/19 05:31 PM
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Gene Nelson Online content
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Originally Posted by daniokeeper


Thx Joe,
The instructions differ from the data on the site the link takes me to.
It wont work for me.
appreciate the help.


RPT
PTG Member
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