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How to count properly #2868228
07/11/19 05:12 AM
07/11/19 05:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 27
Czech Republic
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Tom97 Offline OP
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Let´s say a have a piece in 4/4 and there is a bar containing a quarter note, eighth note and sixteenth note.
If I had a measaure with quarter notes only, I´d count 1-2-3-4 for every beat. If I had eighth notes only, I´d count 1-and-2-and-3-and-4-and.
For sixteenth notes it´s 1-e-and-a 2-e-and-a etc.
Now, do I always count based on the "smallest" note value in the measure so that in my example above I´d use 1-e-and-a even for quarter notes? Or do I use specific counting for each note depending on its value? I struggle even now if I have to play and count at the same time using 1-e-and-a for all notes. I am sure it would be even more difficult if I had to figure out for every note what "counting system" to use and then apply it.

Thank you

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Re: How to count properly [Re: Tom97] #2868240
07/11/19 05:51 AM
07/11/19 05:51 AM
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The reason to count aloud is to play the piece in time, until playing in time becomes completely imprinted into your psyche.

So, make sure that you can count aloud rhythmically and in time. Languages in which there is more than one syllable for each number (like my native language) may cause problems (which was why I was taught to count in English).

Therefore it follows that if you're playing very slowly, you might have to add extra words like "and" in between 1, 2, 3 etc. If you're playing fast, you can't manage those extra words and you can just count on the beats. Obviously, for example with sixteenth notes played over quarter notes and you're having difficulty with the rhythm, you'll have to subdivide the beats, add extra words, and practice slowly.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: How to count properly [Re: bennevis] #2868324
07/11/19 09:55 AM
07/11/19 09:55 AM
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Finland
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outo Offline
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Originally Posted by bennevis
The reason to count aloud is to play the piece in time, until playing in time becomes completely imprinted into your psyche.

So, make sure that you can count aloud rhythmically and in time. Languages in which there is more than one syllable for each number (like my native language) may cause problems (which was why I was taught to count in English).


Not necessarily...my language works excellently for counting. You can use the 2 syllables for counting 8th notes for example, but use the shortened versions for counting fast triplets. I think it is much more convenient than English where you often have to add "and".

Re: How to count properly [Re: Tom97] #2868332
07/11/19 10:24 AM
07/11/19 10:24 AM
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Canada
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I only count the note value. If it's quarter notes follow by 2 8th and triplets. I will count 1 2 and 3 and and 4. After I can count the phrase without a mistake , I play and count. When I got the rhythm right, I stop counting.



"The piano keys are black and white but they sound like a million colors in your mind.”
– Maria Cristina

Re: How to count properly [Re: Tom97] #2868343
07/11/19 11:01 AM
07/11/19 11:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
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Sweden
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Originally Posted by Tom97
Now, do I always count based on the "smallest" note value in the measure so that in my example above I´d use 1-e-and-a even for quarter notes? Or do I use specific counting for each note depending on its value? I struggle even now if I have to play and count at the same time using 1-e-and-a for all notes. I am sure it would be even more difficult if I had to figure out for every note what "counting system" to use and then apply it.

Usually, when I start with a piece, and the rhythm is complex, I count based on the smallest note value in the measure. Once I have a feeling for the rhythm, I count the note value. And eventually, the counting just drops by itself.
Also, just like Outo, my language works better for counting than english. I say e-ne-ma-le twee-e-ma-le, drie-e-ma-le, etc.


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Re: How to count properly [Re: Tom97] #2868362
07/11/19 11:46 AM
07/11/19 11:46 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,965
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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Originally Posted by Tom97
Let´s say a have a piece in 4/4 and there is a bar containing a quarter note, eighth note and sixteenth note.
If I had a measaure with quarter notes only, I´d count 1-2-3-4 for every beat. If I had eighth notes only, I´d count 1-and-2-and-3-and-4-and.
For sixteenth notes it´s 1-e-and-a 2-e-and-a etc.
Now, do I always count based on the "smallest" note value in the measure so that in my example above I´d use 1-e-and-a even for quarter notes? Or do I use specific counting for each note depending on its value? I struggle even now if I have to play and count at the same time using 1-e-and-a for all notes. I am sure it would be even more difficult if I had to figure out for every note what "counting system" to use and then apply it.

Thank you


Unless the combination of notes represents a complex rhythm, I don't see any necessity to count in the smallest note value (sixteenth-notes) as per the above quote. Is it not possible to play four sixteenth-notes evenly in one beat without counting each note individually? Is it not possible to play two eighth-notes evenly in one beat without counting each note individually? The risk in counting individual notes rather than just the beats is that the passage (piece) may lose any sense of pulse.

That said, there may be times when it is necessary to work on small details of rhythm, but for overall practicing I don't see the necessity of breaking one's counting down to the smallest note value in a passage.

Regards,


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Re: How to count properly [Re: Tom97] #2868428
07/11/19 03:35 PM
07/11/19 03:35 PM
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Boynton Beach, FL
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Actually, it's best to look at the smallest note value of the entire piece, and use that for counting every measure (i.e., if there are any 16ths, you'd count 1e+a 2e+a 3e+a 4e+a throughout). This ensures accuracy when that small note value comes along. Otherwise, a big mistake beginners make is that they only count "ands" when there are 8th notes, and leave them out when no 8th notes are there and inevitably, their quarter notes and 8th notes sound the same.

Of course, if you are playing more advanced pieces and used to counting, then you only write in the counting in measures that need help, but just be careful that you beat remains steady throughout.


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Re: How to count properly [Re: Tom97] #2868432
07/11/19 03:48 PM
07/11/19 03:48 PM
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Nebraska, USA
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I've only been playing a little over a year, and when I started, I had to count the smallest note value to keep the rhythm. I've found that as I get more experience, I can cut more and more. Like now, if I had 2 quarter notes, 3 eighth notes, and 2 16ths, now I'd probably do 1 2 3 + 4 + a. If I had trouble with that, I might add more, like 1 (+) 2 (+) 3 + 4 (e) + a. I think, like everything, it's a process.

Re: How to count properly [Re: Tom97] #2868453
07/11/19 04:55 PM
07/11/19 04:55 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 247
Connecticut, USA
MichaelJK Offline

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Originally Posted by Tom97
Let´s say a have a piece in 4/4 and there is a bar containing a quarter note, eighth note and sixteenth note.
If I had a measaure with quarter notes only, I´d count 1-2-3-4 for every beat. If I had eighth notes only, I´d count 1-and-2-and-3-and-4-and.
For sixteenth notes it´s 1-e-and-a 2-e-and-a etc.
Now, do I always count based on the "smallest" note value in the measure so that in my example above I´d use 1-e-and-a even for quarter notes? Or do I use specific counting for each note depending on its value? I struggle even now if I have to play and count at the same time using 1-e-and-a for all notes. I am sure it would be even more difficult if I had to figure out for every note what "counting system" to use and then apply it.

Thank you


Counting can be really confusing, especially when you get so much conflicting advice about it. That can make it hard to remember that the purpose of counting is to help you feel the music.

I'd be curious to know what is prompting you to ask the question.

Teachers recommend counting as a catch-all solution to many sorts of problems. However, that doesn't mean its always a good solution. That would depend on what your problem is. Counting can even cause problems, if the counting itself is distracting you from the rest of your playing.

Can you count 1-2-3-4 with no problem, while playing with a metronome? If not, this is what you should work on (because it is essential that you are always aware of which beat you are on in the measure). If so, I might advise dispensing with counting altogether and just play your music.

If counting isn't helping you, don't do it.

Re: How to count properly [Re: Tom97] #2868461
07/11/19 05:07 PM
07/11/19 05:07 PM
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I think it will depend on the piece, the speed of the piece and the experience of the piano player. Do you have any particularly piece you are wandering about ? Otherwise check with your teacher what he woudl suggest you do. I/m not sure there are firm rules. I would tend to do the less counting you need so a more experience person may just count the beat. and often would not need to count at all except on a particularly tricky rhythm. whereas a new player may need to play the lowest count as is not able to do the beat. this however is a massive generalisation. You dont even have to do every beat middle beat. For example, I have the rhythm I was playing wrong. It is in 12/8 time and it goes tied quaver, quaver, dotted quaver, semiquaver. I wrote in the beats with + only when I had the note to play then. So I wrote and count it 1,2 + 3, 4, 5, 6 + and play in the bold. Nailed the rhythm no problem.

Last edited by Moo :); 07/11/19 05:12 PM.
Re: How to count properly [Re: MichaelJK] #2868472
07/11/19 05:53 PM
07/11/19 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelJK
the purpose of counting is to help you feel the music.

No, actually, the purpose of counting is to enable you to play in time and with the correct rhythm, as a learner. Sometimes, even more experienced pianists have to count in certain sections to ensure they are rhythmically correct:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3KTfm9MEsw

Anyone who just plays a piece as he "feels the music" is going to have a nasty shock when he listens to what he's actually playing - if he's wise enough to record himself and he's musically astute enough to hear when the beat is billowing like the wind.

Which he usually isn't (otherwise he'd have learnt to count beats in the first place), and therefore just continues bumbling along.......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: How to count properly [Re: Morodiene] #2868474
07/11/19 05:56 PM
07/11/19 05:56 PM
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Posts: 314
Southeast USA
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Progman Offline

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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Actually, it's best to look at the smallest note value of the entire piece, and use that for counting every measure (i.e., if there are any 16ths, you'd count 1e+a 2e+a 3e+a 4e+a throughout). This ensures accuracy when that small note value comes along. Otherwise, a big mistake beginners make is that they only count "ands" when there are 8th notes, and leave them out when no 8th notes are there and inevitably, their quarter notes and 8th notes sound the same.

Of course, if you are playing more advanced pieces and used to counting, then you only write in the counting in measures that need help, but just be careful that you beat remains steady throughout.


My teacher says same as Morodiene - as a 1 year beginner that's what I do.

Counting is a key skill it seems to me that has to mastered in the first couple of years of practice. I had great difficulties counting out loud in the beginning. I look forward to the day when I am a human metronome....


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Re: How to count properly [Re: Progman] #2868492
07/11/19 07:19 PM
07/11/19 07:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 565
Irving, Texas
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Originally Posted by Progman
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Actually, it's best to look at the smallest note value of the entire piece, and use that for counting every measure (i.e., if there are any 16ths, you'd count 1e+a 2e+a 3e+a 4e+a throughout). This ensures accuracy when that small note value comes along. Otherwise, a big mistake beginners make is that they only count "ands" when there are 8th notes, and leave them out when no 8th notes are there and inevitably, their quarter notes and 8th notes sound the same.

Of course, if you are playing more advanced pieces and used to counting, then you only write in the counting in measures that need help, but just be careful that you beat remains steady throughout.


My teacher also says the same as Morodiene - as a 1 year beginner that's what I do.

Counting is a key skill it seems to me that has to mastered in the first couple of years of practice. I had great difficulties counting out loud in the beginning. I look forward to the day when I am a human metronome....

My teacher also says same as Morodiene. Quarter and Eight notes sounding the same? Guilty! That and swinging the Eighth notes. I didn't even know I was doing either one until my teacher pointed it out to me. But before she did that she'd asked me to see if I could figure out on my own what needed improving on the pieces I played. blush So not only do my counting skills need some work, but so do my listening skills!


Linda

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Re: How to count properly [Re: Tom97] #2869153
07/14/19 07:37 AM
07/14/19 07:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 227
London
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Two things:

1) When you read a word you don't read all the individual letters. You read a collection of letters that form the words until you recognise it. Same with rhythm. Learn to count the pulse and then you'll learn all the various rhythm patters within. Obviously, breaking patterns down into 'ands' or 'ees' is a step to de-constructing that but the sooner it is placed into context of beats the better.

2) Physicalise the beat. I find that if my body can 'feel', say a 6/8 pulse, then I'm more likely to stay with the pulse in my fingers too.

Re: How to count properly [Re: MichaelJK] #2869225
07/14/19 11:59 AM
07/14/19 11:59 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,206
Canada
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I wanted to think about this post for a bit.
Originally Posted by MichaelJK

Counting can be really confusing, especially when you get so much conflicting advice about it. That can make it hard to remember that the purpose of counting is to help you feel the music.

I'd be curious to know what is prompting you to ask the question.

Teachers recommend counting as a catch-all solution to many sorts of problems. However, that doesn't mean its always a good solution. That would depend on what your problem is. Counting can even cause problems, if the counting itself is distracting you from the rest of your playing.

Can you count 1-2-3-4 with no problem, while playing with a metronome? If not, this is what you should work on (because it is essential that you are always aware of which beat you are on in the measure). If so, I might advise dispensing with counting altogether and just play your music.

If counting isn't helping you, don't do it.


I think some important things are in this post. The first being - why are you asking the question - what is going on. In fact, the reason for a question may help in the answer.

Some things springing to mind:
- We're told we have to count, so we do it, because we're told we should and it's supposed to solve things somehow
- We've been given different and seemingly conflicting information, and get the idea that one of these is correct, the others not, but which one
- Something else is missing, mixing up the thing
- There is a problem with a particular passage

Recently I shared a sound file with my teacher of a passage on the first day, when exploring how to approach it. One note had the wrong note value. I wasn't overly concerned about time yet but usually pay it some mind. The reason for the off timing was actually awkward fingering - there were different choices, and since this caused hesitation and rushing that affected timing. So you also have to get at the cause.

Re: How to count properly [Re: Tom97] #2869228
07/14/19 12:11 PM
07/14/19 12:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
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Canada
keystring Offline
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Broader picture:

Time has different components. There is rhythm and pulse. There is meter (time signature) and beats in that time signature which might give us the "ONE two three" of a waltz, with that "one" coming in regularly (each measure last the same length of time from "one" to the next "one"). There are also note values (whole, quarter, eighth etc., dotted) which is a different thing - that part can mix things up.

Beat and note value are not the same thing. This often gets confused, because it gets taught wrong. "A quarter note is the length of a beat. A half note is the length of two beats." It's a shortcut explanation which makes it quick to get right at the beginner music, which will also be in */4 time (3/4, 4/4, maybe 2/4) - so that wrong connection gets reinforced. Wrong! In */4 time, the beat is the length of a quarter note, that's all.

Note value is a thing by itself. The note values are proportional to each other: 2 of these are played in the time of 1 of those. If you have four sixteenth notes, than within the space of a quarter note you can go "1 e and a". You could also decide (in 4/4 time) to go 1234 1234 1234 1234. Whatever works best in that passage, and at that moment in time. If you're trying to relate the notes in the RH, with the notes in the LH which have a different value, then you might not look at meter ... beats .... at all for the moment, but just "This LH note fits between those two RH notes." and then refine it.

Understanding how the whole thing works, and then being flexible in what you do, why you do it, and at what point in your music you do it, may be the ticket.

Re: How to count properly [Re: keystring] #2869588
07/15/19 04:20 PM
07/15/19 04:20 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 247
Connecticut, USA
MichaelJK Offline

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Originally Posted by keystring

Recently I shared a sound file with my teacher of a passage on the first day, when exploring how to approach it. One note had the wrong note value. I wasn't overly concerned about time yet but usually pay it some mind. The reason for the off timing was actually awkward fingering - there were different choices, and since this caused hesitation and rushing that affected timing. So you also have to get at the cause.


That's a good example of something that can cause timing to sound incorrect and yet actually be a completely unrelated issue.

Re: How to count properly [Re: bennevis] #2869613
07/15/19 05:46 PM
07/15/19 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by MichaelJK
the purpose of counting is to help you feel the music.

No, actually, the purpose of counting is to enable you to play in time and with the correct rhythm, as a learner. Sometimes, even more experienced pianists have to count in certain sections to ensure they are rhythmically correct:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3KTfm9MEsw

Anyone who just plays a piece as he "feels the music" is going to have a nasty shock when he listens to what he's actually playing - if he's wise enough to record himself and he's musically astute enough to hear when the beat is billowing like the wind.

Which he usually isn't (otherwise he'd have learnt to count beats in the first place), and therefore just continues bumbling along.......


Once again, I couldn't agree more. The YouTube example is brilliant as "Clair de Lune" presents some real rhythmic challenges that even advanced pianists sometimes gloss over, especially in its opening bars. Debussy didn't write those notes in that rhythm to be played however one feels.
It is precisely notated. Counting is absolutely indispensable...in this piece and in every piece. My teacher, wisely, insists on it. Certainly where rhythms are complex, it is absolutely necessary. For beginners, learning to count from the get-go will give you a solid foundation on which to solve more complicated rhythmic problems in the more complex music you'll encounter in the future.


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Re: How to count properly [Re: fatar760] #2869654
07/15/19 09:13 PM
07/15/19 09:13 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 247
Connecticut, USA
MichaelJK Offline

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Originally Posted by fatar760
Two things:

1) When you read a word you don't read all the individual letters. You read a collection of letters that form the words until you recognise it. Same with rhythm. Learn to count the pulse and then you'll learn all the various rhythm patters within. Obviously, breaking patterns down into 'ands' or 'ees' is a step to de-constructing that but the sooner it is placed into context of beats the better.

2) Physicalise the beat. I find that if my body can 'feel', say a 6/8 pulse, then I'm more likely to stay with the pulse in my fingers too.


This is very good advice.

It also occurs to me that I don't even know what the OP means by "counting".

Seriously, question this!

Again:
- What problem exactly are you trying to solve?
- Anyone who is promoting "counting" as a solution: what technique exactly are you referring to?


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