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Setteling this once and for all (GFII action)
#2868353 07/11/19 10:21 AM
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I'm in the market for a premium digital piano, and so far the Kawai CA78 is the best I've come across by far!

However, upon researching, I have found a distressing amount of forum entries of Kawai owners who have had issues with their GFII sporting pianos, consisting of everything from reports of keys rubbing on eachother, keys having different heights, keys having uneven spacings, and even keys not producing any sound all together. While most of these issues were resolved by Kawais customer service, or fixed DIY style, neither of these options are available to me, and so to rephrase the intro of this post; I'm in the market for a premium, reliable digital piano. One that is not prone to run into any mechanical or technical shortcomings within few years of use. I'm not saying that GFII is bad because it needs maintainance. On the contrary it further shows how realistic the key action truly is, to run into the same maintainance requirements of that of a real acoustic. I'm just saying that I, however unfortunate, cannot afford to maintain it.

Now, what I'm hoping is that the reason there are so many reports of faulty Kawais is because only bad experiences are being shared, whereas satisfied Kawai owners stay silent.

So, for any Kawai GFII owner out there, please share your experience with the instrument in the comments below. Good or bad. Wether the issues were resolved or not, or even if the piano lived up to your every expectation. I'd love to hear how the piano has held up over the years, and if it's showing any signs of wear and tear. If possible please also state how long you've owned the piano and how often (how many hours) it has been played.

I am more than willing to downgrade to a poorer key action if that is what it takes to get a truly reliable piano, but I want to build as good of a case for the otherwise excelent feel of the GFII action first, before I start looking elsewhere.

Thanks to all participants

Last edited by Romar; 07/11/19 10:24 AM.
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Re: Setteling this once and for all (GFII action)
Romar #2868364 07/11/19 10:48 AM
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Grand Feel 2 is more like a girlfriend for me, I still love it despite its issues haha
I searched for my perfect DP more than 2 years, and if I were to choose again, I narrowed my choice and my first choice still Kawai GF2 and the second place would be Roland PHA50


Let's help each other... laugh
Re: Setteling this once and for all (GFII action)
Romar #2868371 07/11/19 11:03 AM
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Hi Romar. Not sure if you are only looking for a cabinet type piano, but the MP11SE has the older GF action which feels about the same to me. When I tried the CA98 at the store and compared the GFII with the GF on the MP11, I didn't sense any difference except the GF seemed slightly heavier. Given that the action on many DPs tend to be too light, that was the selling feature that made me go with the MP. As far as I know, none of the action issues you cited have been common with the MP. If you don't have to have speakers and the furniture cabinet, you may want to consider the MP11SE if the CAs don't do it for you.

Last edited by Emery Wang; 07/11/19 11:04 AM.

Daily driver: Kawai MP11SE
First crush: Kawai GL10
Current fling: Petrof III
Foster child: 1927 Kurtzmann upright
Re: Setteling this once and for all (GFII action)
Romar #2868480 07/11/19 05:45 PM
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I had an MP11se and traded it off for a CA78. Never had problems with the GF action, but the piano was too big and heavy for me to move around anyway. I found the GFII action to be a noticeable improvement, but not a deal breaker either way. Never any issues with either of them.
I think the ones you read about are the ones that have problems, not the large majority that don't.

Re: Setteling this once and for all (GFII action)
EP #2868484 07/11/19 06:02 PM
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Hi EP. What did you find better on the GFII action? It felt about the same to me, but then I didn't play it that much.


Daily driver: Kawai MP11SE
First crush: Kawai GL10
Current fling: Petrof III
Foster child: 1927 Kurtzmann upright
Re: Setteling this once and for all (GFII action)
Romar #2868631 07/12/19 05:18 AM
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Sorry I can't really describe it in objective terms. I also have a Kawai grand and it just seems like the GFII is more similar to the feel of the acoustic. I think action feel is very subjective and your response to the feel depends a lot on what you're used to, as well as the sound of the piano, etc. As I said, it wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me either way, and it wasn't the reason I traded the MP11SE for the CA78.

Re: Setteling this once and for all (GFII action)
Romar #2868633 07/12/19 05:34 AM
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p.s. This may be a bit OT but I originally had a VPC1 and the action was a deal-breaker for me, and was the reason I traded for the MP11 - I just didn't care for the feel of the action as you moved closer to the back of the keys. Of course I know many people are happy with that action, so clearly it's personal preference.
In the end it was primarily the desire to have a more "piano-like" instrument rather than the stage-piano arrangement that was the main reason to switch to the CA78.

Re: Setteling this once and for all (GFII action)
Romar #2868693 07/12/19 09:56 AM
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Hah, I get you there EP. I had originally bought my MP11SE to replace a Casio cabinet DP in my living room, but the slab just didn't look right there. That ended up with my moving the MP11 up to my room, and replacing the Casio with a Kawai acoustic grand.

Expensive miscalculation I guess, but totally worth it!


Daily driver: Kawai MP11SE
First crush: Kawai GL10
Current fling: Petrof III
Foster child: 1927 Kurtzmann upright
Re: Setteling this once and for all (GFII action)
Emery Wang #2868698 07/12/19 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Emery Wang
Hah, I get you there EP. I had originally bought my MP11SE to replace a Casio cabinet DP in my living room, but the slab just didn't look right there. That ended up with my moving the MP11 up to my room, and replacing the Casio with a Kawai acoustic grand.

Expensive miscalculation I guess, but totally worth it!


As I was reading this I was expecting you to say something like I got a CA98 or a K500 and then boom I see a Grand!

Akin to someone saying I bought VW Golf but it just didn't look right in my driveway so I put that in the garage and I bought myself a humvee.

Re: Setteling this once and for all (GFII action)
Faiz #2868760 07/12/19 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Faiz
Grand Feel 2 is more like a girlfriend for me, I still love it despite its issues haha
I searched for my perfect DP more than 2 years, and if I were to choose again, I narrowed my choice and my first choice still Kawai GF2 and the second place would be Roland PHA50


I personally went with the PHA50 for that reason. More afforable (at least in my area) and it seems to be a more durable/reliable action (which I prefer over chasing realism at the cost of durability/reliability).

Although it may just come down to statistics (more people buy Kawai pianos so there are more complaints about the action, vs Roland and their PHA50). Hard to say though. Guess I'll find out if my PHA50 breaks down in a few years lol.

Last edited by Maconi; 07/12/19 12:36 PM.
Re: Setteling this once and for all (GFII action)
Romar #2868771 07/12/19 12:49 PM
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I really love the GF1 action (sorry, don't have a much experience on GF2). It's silky smooth, weighted very similarly to quality large grands, unparalleled in how quiet it is, and is still among the longest pivot lengths available, even with new entries like Yamaha's Grand Touch and Roland Hybrid Grand actions. From what I've seen, the GF2 is the same.

I would really echo the call to try the pianos you want, go with the one you love, and not put too much weight on the reports you've heard online (and I'm speaking as someone who contributed more his his own fair share of "issues" from mine). Personally, I think we may see more issues is because people who consciously choose the GF/GF2 tend to be among the more discerning and demanding, and are purchasing the piano in large part because of the action.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Setteling this once and for all (GFII action)
Romar #2868793 07/12/19 01:14 PM
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I have the MP 11 with the GF action and also the Roland RD 2000 with the PHA 50 action and the Kawai is the more piano like action it is also my favorite . I have never tried the CF 2 action but I have read wear people have preferred the CF action to the CF2 action and visa versa .

Re: Setteling this once and for all (GFII action)
Romar #2868934 07/13/19 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Romar
I'm in the market for a premium digital piano, and so far the Kawai CA78 is the best I've come across by far!

However, upon researching, I have found a distressing amount of forum entries of Kawai owners who have had issues with their GFII sporting pianos, consisting of everything from reports of keys rubbing on eachother, keys having different heights, keys having uneven spacings, and even keys not producing any sound all together. While most of these issues were resolved by Kawais customer service, or fixed DIY style, neither of these options are available to me, and so to rephrase the intro of this post; I'm in the market for a premium, reliable digital piano. One that is not prone to run into any mechanical or technical shortcomings within few years of use. I'm not saying that GFII is bad because it needs maintainance. On the contrary it further shows how realistic the key action truly is, to run into the same maintainance requirements of that of a real acoustic. I'm just saying that I, however unfortunate, cannot afford to maintain it.

Now, what I'm hoping is that the reason there are so many reports of faulty Kawais is because only bad experiences are being shared, whereas satisfied Kawai owners stay silent.

So, for any Kawai GFII owner out there, please share your experience with the instrument in the comments below. Good or bad. Wether the issues were resolved or not, or even if the piano lived up to your every expectation. I'd love to hear how the piano has held up over the years, and if it's showing any signs of wear and tear. If possible please also state how long you've owned the piano and how often (how many hours) it has been played.

I am more than willing to downgrade to a poorer key action if that is what it takes to get a truly reliable piano, but I want to build as good of a case for the otherwise excelent feel of the GFII action first, before I start looking elsewhere.

Thanks to all participants


I was in the same position as you; wanting the best action (which I judged as the GF2 based on playing a lot of DPs without knowing what they were or which actions were well regarded at the time), but put off by the accounts of various problems. I did a lot of research at that time, and I've kept an eye on it since, and I'll give you my view based on that. Note that I have absolutely no skin in the game, i.e. no vested interest whatsoever, these are purely based on my objective analysis of the evidence.

1. The forum is not a particularly representative sample; Kawai is over-represented here in terms of both conversation and owners of Kawai DPs, compared to overall market share. As such you might expect to see more talk of Kawai problems, and especially since there is a Kawai representative here as well, which will prompt people to raise issues.

2. There have been sporadic reports of a few unusual problems, but those reports tend to be quite few and far between and I wouldn't expect to encounter those problems routinely.

3. There have been some reports of problems such as uneven key spacing, which are quite subjective and actually common to pretty much every piano out there (including acoustic instruments). It *may* be that Yamaha have slightly higher quality control in this regard, but I'm far from certain about that and certainly it's not a significant problem on GF2 pianos from what I can see, i.e. it's not really affecting performance.

4. The problem if clicky keys, i.e. some keys developing an audible click when played, is widely reported here and elsewhere and in my view is a real issue that is related to the GF2 design or manufacturing. This is so common not only on the forum but in the real world that I don't think it can be credibly argued that all of the affected people are unlucky and not representative. I personally know seven people with GF2 pianos now, including myself, and ALL have experienced this problem. I think this is the only problem with GF2 which can be reliably confirmed and is likely to affect a new buyer. Is it a deal breaker? To me, no. The click can be loud but not overwhelming so, and once you're used to it you tend not to notice it so much. If you play with headphones, which I tend to do, you don't really hear it at all.

So having been in your position, I bought a GF2 piano (a CA67), I have experienced the common clicky keys problem that many people experience but I haven't encountered any other problems. The clicky keys is fine to live with, especially if you use headphones. Would I buy it again if I knew how it would be? Absolutely; wouldn't hesitate.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: Setteling this once and for all (GFII action)
karvala #2868953 07/13/19 10:33 AM
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Hey Karvala.

Thank you so much for your response. This was exactly the reply I was hoping to get, and I grately appreciate it!

I actually just came home from the dealer, and he showed me exactly what part of the mechanism which makes the keys uneven with time (the "slip tape"?), and also gave me an estimate price on how much he would take to service the whole piano (~$200). He also showed me how to fix it myself.

Had it not been for the fact that I had 2 baby seats (and 2 babies!) In the car with me, I would have bought it then and there. I'll probably return and buy it on monday though (Polished Ebony, obviously).

As for clicky keys, it's not too much of an issue to me either, as long as the keys are straight and in order smile

Again, thank you so much for your input! I mentioned in an earlier post that I suspected that the high number of faulty reports of Kawai owners were due to there being more kawai owners out there, and also because it is more normal to raise questions and start threads regarding bad experiences. I'm glad I got that confirmed.

And thanks to everyone else whos commented and helped me make this descision!

Re: Setteling this once and for all (GFII action)
Romar #2868965 07/13/19 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Romar
Hey Karvala.

Thank you so much for your response. This was exactly the reply I was hoping to get, and I grately appreciate it!

I actually just came home from the dealer, and he showed me exactly what part of the mechanism which makes the keys uneven with time (the "slip tape"?), and also gave me an estimate price on how much he would take to service the whole piano (~$200). He also showed me how to fix it myself.

Had it not been for the fact that I had 2 baby seats (and 2 babies!) In the car with me, I would have bought it then and there. I'll probably return and buy it on monday though (Polished Ebony, obviously).

As for clicky keys, it's not too much of an issue to me either, as long as the keys are straight and in order smile

Again, thank you so much for your input! I mentioned in an earlier post that I suspected that the high number of faulty reports of Kawai owners were due to there being more kawai owners out there, and also because it is more normal to raise questions and start threads regarding bad experiences. I'm glad I got that confirmed.

And thanks to everyone else whos commented and helped me make this descision!



I certainly am fine with you moving forward with your "Kawai" purchase.

I have had many Kawai digital pianos and am a big fan.

However, you mentioned something about "slip tape" as cause for the keys to become uneven …

Try as I might …. I can not come up with even a single reference on the internet of the term SLIP TAPE in connection with piano keys.

That seems odd to me if there is a connection as your "dealer" suggested.

Matters not to me,.

Just thought it needed to be at least mentioned.



Last edited by dmd; 07/13/19 11:14 AM.

Don

Casio PX-S1000, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used), Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface, Yamaha MG06 Mixer
Re: Setteling this once and for all (GFII action)
dmd #2868991 07/13/19 12:42 PM
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Yeah that was lost in translation.

It's this tiny bit of felt here, circled in red:
[img]https://ibb.co/W3kYWR8[/img]

It compresses over time (with use), and will need to be changed out to keep the keys completely level.

Re: Setteling this once and for all (GFII action)
Romar #2869007 07/13/19 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Romar
Yeah that was lost in translation.

It's this tiny bit of felt here, circled in red:
[img]https://ibb.co/W3kYWR8[/img]

It compresses over time (with use), and will need to be changed out to keep the keys completely level.


So …. the theory (or fact) is that because keys are not utilized in a completely even manner, the ones used the most will settle at rest to a different height than those used the least.

Seems logical.

I guess the solution to that issue would be to used something that does not compress (like glass).

I will assume there are reasons for using felt instead of something else.


Don

Casio PX-S1000, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used), Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface, Yamaha MG06 Mixer
Re: Setteling this once and for all (GFII action)
dmd #2869009 07/13/19 02:12 PM
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That's true. I suppose the felt gives it an extra layer of realizm. I see that the GF Compact edition (found on the CA58, amongst other models) use a plastic glove type solution:
[Linked Image]


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