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usb recording vs line out recording with audio interface #2868766
07/12/19 01:42 PM
07/12/19 01:42 PM
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Jitin Offline OP
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So I have a p515 , that I record audio from the piano's usb drive, but when I hear online recording, that people record via audio interface like focusrite etc.., it seems like the audio interface recording is fuller and better...what are your guys thoughts on this?


I may have posted something similar, but I don't believe I had gotten responses last time which was a few months ago

Last edited by Jitin; 07/12/19 01:43 PM.

Yamaha P155, Yamaha P515
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Re: usb recording vs line out recording with audio interface [Re: Jitin] #2868778
07/12/19 01:59 PM
07/12/19 01:59 PM
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You've defined case (A) ... your recordings of the P515 on thumb drive.

But the case (B) online recordings is not defined ...
Which piano?
Which piano voice?
What method of recording?
What post-production tweaking, if any?

Lacking any specifics one can only conclude that there exists a piano that you like better than your own.
And there must surely be a piano somewhere that you like less, right?

So I doubt that your question can be properly answered.

Re: usb recording vs line out recording with audio interface [Re: Jitin] #2868786
07/12/19 02:09 PM
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OK
Here is one recording from bonners instruments of p515 cfx patch bonners p515 from 5:40 to 6:24

here is my recording of cfx patcg my recording from thumb drive

I know bonners is not recording from thumb drive because he has said he records directly line out in other videos and I see no thumb drive..

Also bonners records stock sound not edited on piano

my piano is stock cfx sound with the exception of mids being increase 0 to 1/6 everything else is same

Last edited by Jitin; 07/12/19 02:11 PM.

Yamaha P155, Yamaha P515
Re: usb recording vs line out recording with audio interface [Re: Jitin] #2868806
07/12/19 02:58 PM
07/12/19 02:58 PM
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A couple of observations:

The Bonners video is LOUDER. He also *may* be playing with more dynamic variation than you are. Both of these things may lead toward a conclusion of "better".

I think your recording sounds quite nice and it's possible/likely the above factors are more responsible for perceived quality differences between the line out recording vs. thumb drive than any inherent technical difference between the recording methods (which is not to say there may not be inherent differences).

Re: usb recording vs line out recording with audio interface [Re: Jitin] #2868813
07/12/19 03:42 PM
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I agree with pwl’s observations.

Both recordings sound quite nice in my opinion. Other factors may be giving the impression that the line out recording sounds “better”, but I’m not sure that’s actually the case.

Of course the only way to know for sure would be for a pianist to record the same piece both ways and see if there is a difference.


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Re: usb recording vs line out recording with audio interface [Re: Jitin] #2868820
07/12/19 04:05 PM
07/12/19 04:05 PM
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I normalized his recording against yours (volume) by opening up both videos into different tabs of Chrome. Once you get them playing at the same volume using the YT volume control you do not hear the difference in quality. Done deal!

Nice song!


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Re: usb recording vs line out recording with audio interface [Re: Jitin] #2868842
07/12/19 05:57 PM
07/12/19 05:57 PM
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Sounds about right, so I would stick with the USB drive if I were you.

For the "Line Out" recording, there are a bunch of places where things could get degraded...

Piano converts digital sounds to analog
Analog sound sent through a jack, a cable, another jack
Audio interface converts analog signals back to digital

Bonners is going to have a very nice audio interface, which is probably why you can't tell the difference once the levels are the same. Since they're demonstrating a series of pianos that may or may not have USB drives, it makes sense for them to just bring in voice audio and piano line-out audio and mix them in post.

To bring your levels up to their best, if you've got audio software, boost the levels to where the loudest passage in the piece almost, but does not quite, red-line.


Rodney Sauer
Kawai KG-2E • Kawai ES8
Re: usb recording vs line out recording with audio interface [Re: ColoRodney] #2868847
07/12/19 06:29 PM
07/12/19 06:29 PM
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Jitin Offline OP
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Originally Posted by ColoRodney
Sounds about right, so I would stick with the USB drive if I were you.

For the "Line Out" recording, there are a bunch of places where things could get degraded...

Piano converts digital sounds to analog
Analog sound sent through a jack, a cable, another jack
Audio interface converts analog signals back to digital

Bonners is going to have a very nice audio interface, which is probably why you can't tell the difference once the levels are the same. Since they're demonstrating a series of pianos that may or may not have USB drives, it makes sense for them to just bring in voice audio and piano line-out audio and mix them in post.

To bring your levels up to their best, if you've got audio software, boost the levels to where the loudest passage in the piece almost, but does not quite, red-line.


Is it possible to do this in audacity? You make a great point and that is the concern I have , since the hammer noise , is too low , you can really feel the attack

Also I do have a very nice audio interface ( presonus audiobox Vsl 22)

Last edited by Jitin; 07/12/19 06:38 PM.

Yamaha P155, Yamaha P515
Re: usb recording vs line out recording with audio interface [Re: Jitin] #2868850
07/12/19 06:38 PM
07/12/19 06:38 PM
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Are you familiar with DAW, limiters and music production in general?

If your answer is YES, then take the audio file from the thumb drive, put it inside your DAW and insert a transparent maximizer plugin on your master bus then export your track.

If you answer is NO, i wouldn't sweat it much. I think the audio in your video was good enough and enjoyable.

Re: usb recording vs line out recording with audio interface [Re: Jitin] #2868853
07/12/19 06:40 PM
07/12/19 06:40 PM
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No frown


Yamaha P155, Yamaha P515
Re: usb recording vs line out recording with audio interface [Re: Jitin] #2868854
07/12/19 06:42 PM
07/12/19 06:42 PM
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Ok then, like i said, all fine from my end and i enjoyed the video.

Re: usb recording vs line out recording with audio interface [Re: Jitin] #2868876
07/12/19 09:09 PM
07/12/19 09:09 PM
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It depends on what you plan to do with the recording. The direct digital recording of the keyboard will capture the digital format as 16 bit x 44.1kHz. If you don’t plan to do any further manipulation of the recorded content, and want 16x44.1 as your final format, then you may as well avoid the added noise of the D/A conversion, output stage op-amp, and A/D conversion back to digital.

On the other hand, if you plan to do additional manipulation via DSP algorithms in your DAW or mastering software, then working with a 16 bit digitization will mean that every transformation will cause some roundoff errors that will accumulate in the 16 significant bits of the sound. In this case, it may be preferred to generate analog with the keyboard, and digitize it with the ADC chip in a recording interface, and capture a 24 bit x 44.1 kHz sample. Then transformations you apply to the digital format have 8 bits of headroom for roundoff errors to accumulate before they start affecting the 16 bits you care about. Numerical roundoff errors in DSP transformations are digital noise.

Once the digital content is in the form you want, it would be dithered back to 16x44.1. For piano solo recording, the main reason you would be likely to care about doing transformations is if you want to release them as a set, EP, or CD. In this case, you want to balance the audio level in the digital domain so that a listener does not have to adjust the volume on their playback device every time there is a change to a new track. Also making a decision on whether to set the level to sound ok on everything from a car stereo and boom box to high end audiophile system vs optimizing the sound for the audiophile system at the expense of other playback systems is a decision to make. You can have both with the manipulated sample.

The noise of the full audio path from keyboard to recording interface (maybe with a mixer in between as well) can be filtered out by capturing a couple seconds of white noise after starting the recording but before starting to play. Noise filters will flip the white noise to be 180 degrees out of phase, and then sum it in with the recorded content to cancel out the noise. You can also trim the white noise at the beginning and end of each track if desired etc.


Login name is a tribute to Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck, arguably the historically first great keyboard virtuoso.
Re: usb recording vs line out recording with audio interface [Re: Jitin] #2868880
07/12/19 11:08 PM
07/12/19 11:08 PM
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[quote] . . . Is it possible to do this in audacity? You make a great point and that is the concern I have , since the hammer noise , is too low , you can really feel the attack . . . ]/quote]

Audacity has a "Normalize" effect.

If you select the whole (stereo) track, then run "Normalize" and specify that you want the peak level at -1 dB, that will be as loud as it can be, without distorting.

You will have _some_ loss of quality (the problem with having 16-bit samples, mentioned about), but it shouldn't be serious.


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Re: usb recording vs line out recording with audio interface [Re: Jitin] #2868889
07/13/19 12:37 AM
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Quote

If you select the whole (stereo) track, then run "Normalize" and specify that you want the peak level at -1 dB, that will be as loud as it can be, without distorting.

Peak -1dB is too high to avoid clipping on some playback devices.


Login name is a tribute to Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck, arguably the historically first great keyboard virtuoso.
Re: usb recording vs line out recording with audio interface [Re: Jitin] #2868898
07/13/19 02:58 AM
07/13/19 02:58 AM
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Recording the analog outputs could be interesting if the piano samples are 24bits. If they are only 16bits, a 24bits ADC will not get that much information.

With a 16 bits digital record, it is still possible to add 8 zeros and makes it 24bits. It won’t suppress quantisation noise, but add headroom if we want to process it with multiple filters. (I suppose current DAW process signal naturally at 24 or 32 bits... even 64bits with latest Cubase).

About high quality sound, there is the famous video https://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ


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Re: usb recording vs line out recording with audio interface [Re: Jitin] #2868914
07/13/19 06:38 AM
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My audio interface says 24bit/96khz

What that mean it will record 24 bit rather than 16 bit and at 96 kHz than 44 khz ?

Audacity also has settings for 16 bit /44khz and 24 bit/96
Would this all lead better recording since usb is 16bit/44k?


Yamaha P155, Yamaha P515
Re: usb recording vs line out recording with audio interface [Re: Jitin] #2868916
07/13/19 06:49 AM
07/13/19 06:49 AM
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We don’t know how the piano analog signal is produced. If it is produced from 16bits samples, it will have a 16bits quantisation noise full digital or through an analog path. A 24bits ADC will not enhance the samples. If the samples are 24bits, the analog recording will have a better quality. (Assuming a better than 96dB SNR which is current on external audio interface).

The same can be said about the sample rate. With 44kHz, you will have nothing above 22kHz (Nyquist frequency) and recording at 96kHz won’t create frequencies that are not emitted.


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Re: usb recording vs line out recording with audio interface [Re: Jitin] #2868993
07/13/19 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Jitin
My audio interface says 24bit/96khz

What that mean it will record 24 bit rather than 16 bit and at 96 kHz than 44 khz ?

Audacity also has settings for 16 bit /44khz and 24 bit/96
Would this all lead better recording since usb is 16bit/44k?

The interface spec means that 24 bits and 96kHz are the maximum quanta size and sample rates respectively. You can set either to be lower. There is no advantage to sampling at 96kHz if you will release at 44.1kHz. It will require rendering as analog and resampling at 44.1. If you sample at 88.2 you can decimate to 44.1. But the easiest thing is to sample at 44.1.

I agree with the above that if the keyboard samples were 16 bit samples, 24 bit quanta won’t help you much.

My guess would be that keyboard manufacturers are conservative in setting the digital gain in the recorded content they produce so that playback devices don’t end up with blown out tweeters/speakers from clipping.


Login name is a tribute to Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck, arguably the historically first great keyboard virtuoso.

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