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Do Kawai still have the sticky key problem?
#2867411 07/08/19 03:44 PM
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Anyone knows if Kawai still have the sticky key problem in CA78/98 as in CA65-97 or did they do something about it to the latest models?

Right now it's serious problems with my CA65 and I can't play since some of most important keys are badly affected. Cleaning is not enough since the ptfe(?) sheet on the rubber foam is destroyed and/or moved. I will see if I can do repair as mention in other threads but it seems to be very long delivery time for teflon sheets. So probably stuck with not beeing able to do nothing for more than a month ahead.

This is really annoying and I start to think of getting something else and I might have to in the end if I can't repair this problem.
What to get in such a case though is difficult. I wouldn't like to get the same problem again with a new Kawai if they haven't solved it. I'm otherwise happy with sound and key feel of Kawai. To me it would be very strange if Kawai has not redesigned and solved the problem as the reports are serious.
So exclude Kawai or not and what can be options, too look for, when Yamaha has a to heavy keybed in the CLP685?

Re: Do Kawai still have the sticky key problem?
Togge #2867417 07/08/19 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Togge
Anyone knows if Kawai still have the sticky key problem in CA78/98 as in CA65-97 or did they do something about it to the latest models?

Right now it's serious problems with my CA65 and I can't play since some of most important keys are badly affected. Cleaning is not enough since the ptfe(?) sheet on the rubber foam is destroyed and/or moved. I will see if I can do repair as mention in other threads but it seems to be very long delivery time for teflon sheets. So probably stuck with not beeing able to do nothing for more than a month ahead.

This is really annoying and I start to think of getting something else and I might have to in the end if I can't repair this problem.
What to get in such a case though is difficult. I wouldn't like to get the same problem again with a new Kawai if they haven't solved it. I'm otherwise happy with sound and key feel of Kawai. To me it would be very strange if Kawai has not redesigned and solved the problem as the reports are serious.
So exclude Kawai or not and what can be options, too look for, when Yamaha has a to heavy keybed in the CLP685?





Hi Togge,

Some of the Kawai complaints are due to manufacturing issues, some just due to aging. Don't assume that these issues were fixed---easy fixes probably were instigated, but it's unlikely that key parts of the process would be altered if only a small percentage of instruments reported as affected but at great cost. That said, Kawai's are not alone as being reported to be faulty---look at the P515 posts that came out shortly after it was released by Yamaha!

Digital pianos age and components wear: Sometimes brands suffer from certain issues more than other brands due to design compromise. Compromise can be worth it due to engineering improvements in the action. Think Alpha Romeo---the drivers car that isn't so reliable, but none-the-less, just better and more alive to drive than many of it's competitors. There are going to be compromises between action complexity (realism) and reliability. You just have to decide what you value. Note that Nord have brought Kawai actions for their top stage piano: the Nord Grand. I doubt they'd have done that if they though Nord were going to suffer tonnes of negative publicity due to faulty actions.

As an example of wear and tear, I owned a Yamaha PSR keyboard (PSR7000) for nearly 2 decades. I replaced the rubber contact strips three times due to wearing. I was at university for the most of that time (finishing a post-doctoral position finally), so the instrument would probably have lasted much less time had I been regularly gigging with it or practising a lot.

Obviously, how you play the instrument makes a difference to how long these instruments last without requiring repair. If you treat your piano like Elton John (his fingers bled during his 11-17-70 recording) then things will break faster.

Kind regards,

Doug.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Do Kawai still have the sticky key problem?
Togge #2867420 07/08/19 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Togge
Anyone knows if Kawai still have the sticky key problem in CA78/98 as in CA65-97 or did they do something about it to the latest models?

Right now it's serious problems with my CA65 and I can't play since some of most important keys are badly affected. Cleaning is not enough since the ptfe(?) sheet on the rubber foam is destroyed and/or moved. I will see if I can do repair as mention in other threads but it seems to be very long delivery time for teflon sheets. So probably stuck with not beeing able to do nothing for more than a month ahead.

This is really annoying and I start to think of getting something else and I might have to in the end if I can't repair this problem.
What to get in such a case though is difficult. I wouldn't like to get the same problem again with a new Kawai if they haven't solved it. I'm otherwise happy with sound and key feel of Kawai. To me it would be very strange if Kawai has not redesigned and solved the problem as the reports are serious.
So exclude Kawai or not and what can be options, too look for, when Yamaha has a to heavy keybed in the CLP685?


QQ - what environment do you normally play in? Is it particularly hot and/or humid?

I don't think Kawai has changed anything in the manufacture or components of the Grand Feel or Grand Feel 2 action, but the new Grand Feel Compact seems to have moved away from the PTFE tape/foam pad/metal capstan mechanism, and uses a plastic endcap on the key which pushes up the hammer. No idea if this is in response to a perceived problem, an action feel improvement, or economization of parts.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Do Kawai still have the sticky key problem?
Togge #2867502 07/08/19 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Togge
Anyone knows if Kawai still have the sticky key problem in CA78/98 as in CA65-97 or did they do something about it to the latest models?

Right now it's serious problems with my CA65 and I can't play since some of most important keys are badly affected. Cleaning is not enough since the ptfe(?) sheet on the rubber foam is destroyed and/or moved. I will see if I can do repair as mention in other threads but it seems to be very long delivery time for teflon sheets. So probably stuck with not beeing able to do nothing for more than a month ahead.

This is really annoying and I start to think of getting something else and I might have to in the end if I can't repair this problem.
What to get in such a case though is difficult. I wouldn't like to get the same problem again with a new Kawai if they haven't solved it. I'm otherwise happy with sound and key feel of Kawai. To me it would be very strange if Kawai has not redesigned and solved the problem as the reports are serious.
So exclude Kawai or not and what can be options, too look for, when Yamaha has a to heavy keybed in the CLP685?





My MP7SE had a sticky key problem I know the action is different but here is my experience with KAWAI so far. In less than 1.5 months and probably 24-48 hours of play in total, it developed random velocity issues. I contacted KAWAI US and asked for a fair solution as I had the keyboard for less than 1.5 months.

I eventually had to take my keyboard to the repair person they asked me to. The technician repaired the keyboard in his house basement and returned it to me with obvious damages on the body.

According to the technician and the store, all of the plastic strips under the keys were changed. Also, it is very difficult NOT TO DAMAGE they keyboard while repairing it manually. The technician should really care for your instrument to do a clean job which was not my case.

That being said, MP7SE is an amazing keyboard soundwise.

Good Luck.

Last edited by Abdol; 07/08/19 09:29 PM.

Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: Do Kawai still have the sticky key problem?
Abdol #2867506 07/08/19 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Abdol


I eventually had to take my keyboard to the repair person they asked me to. The technician repaired the keyboard in his house basement and returned it to me with obvious damages on the body.

Unfortunately this is becoming more and more common. Companies are outsourcing whatever they can to the lowest bidder - whether the manufacturing itself, or the servicing at domestic level. It's the world we live in - it's the only way to keep prices in check in a competitive marketplace. Your guy probable knows what he's doing, but he's not making enough to take optimal care with each disassembly. He probably has a very small operation pumping loads of repairs through daily. It's a new thing - auctioning your labour to the cheapest bidder. I'm seeing it in Australia too. The internet has done this to us. As much as we all like to shop endlessly for the cheapest everything, it comes at the cost of quality. I think we were better off when we paid what things were worth, rather than what has been made by paying poor nations the least we can. I wonder if we will ever change again, or whether "cheap" will be the mantra of mankind forever more.

Re: Do Kawai still have the sticky key problem?
Togge #2867568 07/09/19 05:39 AM
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Hello Togge, welcome to the forum.

May I ask if you have already contacted your dealer and/or Kawai distributor to report the keyboard issue that you are experiencing?

Kind regards,
James
x


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Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Do Kawai still have the sticky key problem?
Togge #2867658 07/09/19 11:30 AM
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Hi Togge,
I also have a CA65 and I've had problems with sticky keys from about 3 years. The piano has not been heavily used as I also have an upright which I play much more. Fortunately the digital came with a 5 year warranty and I'm getting it repaired for a 3rd time just before my warranty expires. Whilst I think the CA series of pianos are great in many ways this PTFE key problem regrettably means I will look elsewhere for my next digital paino.

Re: Do Kawai still have the sticky key problem?
Togge #2868089 07/10/19 05:49 PM
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Hello!

Thanks for answering.

No I did not contact my dealer since the warranty is gone since long. So decided to give it a try myself.

Regards

Re: Do Kawai still have the sticky key problem?
Togge #2868134 07/10/19 08:48 PM
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Hello Togge,

Even if the warranty has expired, I would still contact your Kawai dealer and/or distributor to explain the situation, and to ask for advice.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Do Kawai still have the sticky key problem?
Doug M. #2868589 07/12/19 03:18 AM
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You seem to know a great deal about key action reliability. I really want the CA78, but, as you put it, they've compromised reliability for realism. To me, reliability is much more important. What would you recommend I get? I've heard the Roland LX706 described as having a "maintainance free" mechanism in their demo video on YouTube, but are there any other high end brands and models out there with maintainance free key actions? Perhaps the Yamaha CLP 675? Or CSP 170? These have also been strong contenders for me

Last edited by Romar; 07/12/19 03:19 AM.
Re: Do Kawai still have the sticky key problem?
Togge #2868592 07/12/19 03:36 AM
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There are many Kawai owners here which might explain why Kawai actions are statistically mentioned most often in regards to problems with their actions. But yeah, if you’re gonna draw conclusions from this forum only, that’s the reality smile


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Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Do Kawai still have the sticky key problem?
CyberGene #2868593 07/12/19 03:45 AM
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Some of the issues that have been discussed on this forum are quite extensive though. I'm really fond of the feel of the GFII, but if that feel becomes compromised by sticky or missaligned keys after only a few years, than they're no longer worth it. Better to invest in something that lasts smile

Re: Do Kawai still have the sticky key problem?
Romar #2868598 07/12/19 04:09 AM
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Romar, I don't believe sticky and/or misaligned keys is a common problem.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Do Kawai still have the sticky key problem?
Kawai James #2868600 07/12/19 04:30 AM
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Hey, do you think it would be possible to open the piano at the shops to make sure everything is ok before I bring it home?

Re: Do Kawai still have the sticky key problem?
Romar #2868603 07/12/19 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Romar
Hey, do you think it would be possible to open the piano at the shops to make sure everything is ok before I bring it home?

IMO absolutely out of the question.


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Re: Do Kawai still have the sticky key problem?
CyberGene #2868609 07/12/19 05:02 AM
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Why? Saves me the trip home and back if it's faulty

Re: Do Kawai still have the sticky key problem?
Togge #2868611 07/12/19 05:04 AM
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"open the piano" as in "open the box containing the piano" or "physically remove screws and lift off the lid etc."?


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Do Kawai still have the sticky key problem?
Kawai James #2868620 07/12/19 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
"open the piano" as in "open the box containing the piano" or "physically remove screws and lift off the lid etc."?

I thought he meant the latter - unscrewing panels and checking the keyboard. But if he meant opening the box at the store to just check the piano before bringing it home, then of course they should agree and might even be obliged to do so depending on local regulations.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Do Kawai still have the sticky key problem?
Togge #2868629 07/12/19 06:16 AM
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Well, I just composed (then threw away) a post to the effect that obviously he means open the box...then had a reread.
Whatever a reputation about an instrument is flying about, the chances of a retailer letting a potential buyer take a screwdriver to it before buying...shouldn't need stating. For a start it's instantly become second hand...

Re: Do Kawai still have the sticky key problem?
thickfingers #2868646 07/12/19 07:54 AM
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Hey guys,

Yeah I ment open the box. Bad choice of wording there from my part crazy

But yeah, opening the box and inspecting the keys shouldnt be an issue, should it? And if theres something askew or not to my liking (however much the salesman might disagree), I've saved myself the effort of having to re-box the piano and bring it back in. Also, if the salesman has more than one in stock I might be able to keep looking until I find one to my liking.

Also, as i type this out I realize how ridiculous i sound, but this is money I really can't afford to waste (I'm upgrading from a $700 YDP 141, so I'm WAY out of my previous price range)

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