2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Petrof Pianos
Petrof Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

Who's Online Now
33 registered members (earlofmar, DDobs, David Boyce, gesine, BachToTheFuture, CyberGene, clothearednincompo, giu, 10 invisible), 303 guests, and 388 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Pre- AccuJust hitch pin Baldwin 7 ft. (Model F) #2868539 07/11/19 10:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 270
R
RestorerPhil Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 270
I measured crown on a rebuild project today - 50 year old Baldwin F. Using the string trick under the board, area along the longest rib had barely 1/8" crown. The crown was not centered under the bridges, of course. The higher areas of the board were virtually flat. As far as the sound, the melody octaves fade quickly, and the upper treble is thin.

A preliminary proposal had included action rebuild and restringing, but now WE KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH WILL NOT BE FREE!

It appears that the job will go from very simple in the belly work department, to major, IF they go for the upgrade.

My question is whether I could expect to get a pretty good pre-fab board for a the Baldwin F. It would be worthwhile to do a cutoff bar for the sake of shortening those too-long ribs. I would send a pattern, including the location of the added cut-off bar. That would likely be laid out to reduce that corner of the board by about 14". I would want the board pre-ribbed, taking advantage of the newer treble rib spacings and dimensions.

Any advice on this? [ Job not finalized. Job not contracted or picked up yet.]


Lavender Piano Services
Established 1977
Tuning, Concert Maintenance,
Rebuilding & Restoration
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Pre- AccuJust hitch pin Baldwin 7 ft. (Model F) [Re: RestorerPhil] #2868546 07/11/19 11:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 28,189
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 28,189
Well, there were Baldwin boards available on Ebay recently.

But before you consider that, you might consider whether the board actually needs replacing. Baldwin said that you cannot judge a board by measuring the crown with the strings on:

Quote
Occasionally the question will arise concerning the proper way to measure crown on a soundboard. First, let’s differentiate between two related terms - crown and downbearing. Crown is the measurement of the spherical shape of the soundboard. The soundboard is often compared to the top of a violin in that the board is arched upward instead of having a flat shape. Downbearing is the measurement of the deflection of the strings as they cross the bridges.
Soundboards utilize a crown to help offset the downward pressure of the strings. Also, soundboards under tension will produce a fuller, more vibrant tone across the musical scale. The crown on a soundboard is normally designed to have approximately a 1/8” to 1/4” deflection in the middle of the board with the piano unstrung. However, once strung, the total downward pressure of the strings on the soundboard can result in a 400-1200 pound load that continually pushes the soundboard downward. It is the designed balance of the crown and downbearing that will enable a piano to resonate and produce tone to its fullest potential.
It must be stressed that crown cannot be measured on a tuned, strung piano. The downward pressure of the strings will prevent any accurate measurement of crown. Technicians will commonly attempt to measure crown with a string or straightedge along the underside of a grand parallel to a rib. This will only show crown in the loaded condition. The tone of the piano is a better assessment of the crown of the board. A full tone with adequate sustain is an effective indication of sufficient crown.


Other factors are important. Old strings are often stiffer than new ones. Old hammers often impart different forces than newer ones. If there is not much sound at the beginning, it is not going to last very long. All these factors begin to take effect after 50 years or so, but conditions vary and pianos vary, so nothing can be taken as a hard and fast rule.


Semipro Tech
Re: Pre- AccuJust hitch pin Baldwin 7 ft. (Model F) [Re: RestorerPhil] #2868831 07/12/19 04:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,956
P
P W Grey Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,956
I have long held to the rule that you must remove all tension and compression from the board before looking at the crown, or making any judgement about it.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Pre- AccuJust hitch pin Baldwin 7 ft. (Model F) [Re: RestorerPhil] #2868855 07/12/19 06:57 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 270
R
RestorerPhil Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 270
Points well taken.

It was the tone quality that led to the investigation of the crown (well, really more like playing with string under the piano). Another customer has a Baldwin L (6'4"?) that has a negative crowned board. That is simply a no-brainer. In that situation, the only good sustain on it is the tenor range and downward.

In contrast, this potential Baldwin F job is very much borderline. The soundboard is in good condition, but the piano is not musical. At this point, especially considering the thoughts above, my main concern is wrapped up in this question:

"Do I take in a job, knowing that there is a high probability of not having a full, singing piano?"

With parts of the board (admittedly under full compression) being virtually flat, if down-bearing is insufficient now and causing weak tone, if the down-bearing were to be increased, the board would like end up concave.

I am hoping to get some feedback from the college that had the piano previously. I emailed several of their people about it. It would be good to talk to the servicing technician to get a better handle on the complete picture. So far, my gut says, "Yes. Replace the board. This piano just don't sing."

As mentioned, however, the customer has not been presented with this idea and may not go for it. In a rough draft letter, I have broken it down to ...
Option A - do this for a functional, but not great piano;
Option B - do this for a concert instrument.

Options ?


Lavender Piano Services
Established 1977
Tuning, Concert Maintenance,
Rebuilding & Restoration
Re: Pre- AccuJust hitch pin Baldwin 7 ft. (Model F) [Re: RestorerPhil] #2868967 07/13/19 12:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,956
P
P W Grey Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,956
I once (a long time ago) condemned a Steinway B that had all the "outward" signs of a collapsed and useless soundboard, i.e. oil-canned under the bridge with "no downbearing", no sustain, no tone, horrible tuning stability...

The piano was sold cheap to a rebuilder I knew at the time, expecting to have to replace the board, etc. He called me up a few months later to inform me (and thank me) that there was nothing wrong with the soundboard, in fact it was fantastic...the problem was simply that it had been loaded with WAY too much downbearing, which created all these outward symptoms.

That was the beginning of my re-thinking this situation, which I have now observed numerous times since.

BTW, he made a very healthy profit on that piano.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Pre- AccuJust hitch pin Baldwin 7 ft. (Model F) [Re: RestorerPhil] #2868969 07/13/19 12:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 28,189
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 28,189
The other thing is that wood sometimes takes a while to recover from stress, but it does recover. A board that looks flat when loaded may look much better after a week or so without a load.


Semipro Tech
Re: Pre- AccuJust hitch pin Baldwin 7 ft. (Model F) [Re: RestorerPhil] #2868976 07/13/19 12:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,956
P
P W Grey Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,956
Yes.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Pre- AccuJust hitch pin Baldwin 7 ft. (Model F) [Re: RestorerPhil] #2869156 07/14/19 08:09 AM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 270
R
RestorerPhil Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 270
Familiar. Thanks, guys.

I remember the first Steinway B I ever restrung (1986).

The soundboard on this relatively new one had been greatly overloaded. My guess is that it was made in the dead of winter, then shipped to our very humid climate. Someone had doped the hammers so hard to try to overcome the problem (the wrong way), that it was a very strange sounding instrument.

As a young technician, it took me a few years of dealing with it to be confident that I knew how to solve it.

That Steinway was brand new, when I first began to tune it around 1980. Perhaps this Baldwin F has responded to a similar overload of cumulative down-bearing and could be refreshed to "sing" when properly loaded.

Hmmmm.


Lavender Piano Services
Established 1977
Tuning, Concert Maintenance,
Rebuilding & Restoration
Re: Pre- AccuJust hitch pin Baldwin 7 ft. (Model F) [Re: RestorerPhil] #2869298 07/14/19 04:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,956
P
P W Grey Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,956
My guess would be yes.

Rock hard hammers is another tip-off (if the above symptom set is also present) to confirm the diagnosis of an over-pressurized system.

Pwg

Last edited by P W Grey; 07/14/19 04:46 PM.

Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8

Moderated by  Piano World 

Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Musician's Hand Sanitizer available in our online store (and our Maple Street Music shop in Cornish Maine). Antibacterial, 62% ethyl alcohol. Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Tons more music related products in our online store!
(ad)
Pianoforall
PianoForAll
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Resonance piano-Inspired by the music of Nils Frahm FREE
by newer player - 04/07/20 11:30 PM
Kurzweil PC88mx Repair Help
by wondertwins - 04/07/20 09:17 PM
What is your ranking of the piano composers?
by achoo42 - 04/07/20 08:10 PM
Roland DP603 for my 50th ...
by TheophilusCarter - 04/07/20 07:54 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics197,981
Posts2,942,928
Members96,529
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3