Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
65 registered members (cfrederi, apianostudent, Animisha, Chernobieff Piano, brendon, Bett, Chrispy, 15 invisible), 1,127 guests, and 8 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
Re: I don't get Taubman rotation [Re: MrCreosote] #2549559
06/15/16 12:21 AM
06/15/16 12:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,542
California
P
phantomFive Offline
3000 Post Club Member
phantomFive  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,542
California
Originally Posted by tomhoo
"As a physicist/engineer..." laugh

Me too, in fact my specialty was Vibration of Compressor and Turbine Blades in Jet Engines - I worked for Pratt & Whitney.

The "sports science" of piano technique is either lacking or highly guarded. (But maybe not - how much money is there in winning a piano competition? If the money is there like in pro sports, the tech will be there.)

If you want hard science, Otto Ortmann is your guy. Taubman is for ease of learning. I'm not sure I understand why you're so focused on inertia, though.


Poetry is rhythm
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items, digital piano dolly, music theme party goods
Re: I don't get Taubman rotation [Re: MrCreosote] #2549600
06/15/16 06:37 AM
06/15/16 06:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 363
Alabama
A
anamnesis Offline
Full Member
anamnesis  Offline
Full Member
A

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 363
Alabama
Originally Posted by tomhoo
"As a physicist/engineer..." laugh

Me too, in fact my specialty was Vibration of Compressor and Turbine Blades in Jet Engines - I worked for Pratt & Whitney.

The "sports science" of piano technique is either lacking or highly guarded. (But maybe not - how much money is there in winning a piano competition? If the money is there like in pro sports, the tech will be there.)

I've just discovered Taubman (I'm 63, mostly self taught, ruined by the age of 10 by Finger-Method, yadda yadda...) and while it is so clear that rotation is important (I'm mesmerized by Lisitsa's hands), the explanation of it is very lacking in physics.

Yes, they are identifying the Rotation "Structural Mode" and illustrate its motion or Displacement. And it looks like a few are mentioning Stress which can be related to Force.

But what is really lacking is any mention of Inertia - especially of the forearm. I'll leave Inertia as a characteristic that needs much further investigation and explanation. And note that in slow speeds, inertia "terms" are negligible. But at high speeds, they dominate.

Any repetitive motion can be viewed as a Single Mass Oscillator: a Mass on the end of a Spring. (I think we can leave the Dampener out for now.)

At high speed we can have large inertial and restoring forces and yet they are invisible as far as displacement is concerned.

A high speed trill w/ and w/o rotation will look very similar, but if you could see the fraction of the force due to rotation, it would be a lot higher than what you can see (with the naked eye - slomo and precision mapping of motions would reveal what is actually going on.)
_________________________________

This part is OFF TOPIC, in that it is what lead me to think along these lines: fast octaves:

The very first question I asked myself for playing octaves is, What primary mode of the finger/wrist/forearm/arm is the fastest?

Obviously, the forearm up/down pivoting at elbow is not a fast one.

Nor is individual finger moving up and down either.

Wrist up/down is faster than the above. (So I thought this might be the basis of fast octaves.)

But wrist rotation is the fastest. (Can't see how this helps octaves though.)

But all of these motions are the various "Fundamental Modes" of portions of the complete arm system

But what about 2nd modes?

The forearm u/d is slow, but it's 2nd mode is much faster. In this mode when the arm goes down, the wrist goes up - it is a whip-like motion - something you would do if you were trying to shake something off your hand.

Could the forearm 2nd be faster than the wrist 1st for octaves? Beats me. But I'll bet you that mode shows up if you could measure the joint forces during fast play.

And yes, I also think Golandsky is hot(!)


You might be interested in the passage from Abby Whiteside:

------

The alternating action (that combination between tween forearm and hand which allows the dream of speed without torture to come true) plus the rotary action are the truly master mechanics for speed with brilliance in piano playing If the alternating action received anything like the attention in learning which fingers have been given, there would be a great increase in facility for those players who are now endowed with what seems like a ready-made coordination. All who are thus richly endowed use the alternating action whether they know it or not. The combination of leverage between elbow and wrist which produces the alternating action avoids a vacant up action-vacant vacant of tone production-which means speed in tone production with half the speed in a repeated action. (It is like the trill of the violinist: while the finger is lifted the string is producing tone.) While the forearm lifts, the hand goes down. The hand produces tone while the forearm gets ready to repeat a down action. All that is necessary for a tone is a down action at some point. If there is no vacuum so far as tone production is concerned while an up action is taking place, that horrible feeling of jamming and being unable to achieve speed is relieved. The alternating action turns that comforting trick. It operates in two ways: one when there is positive control at the wrist of the hand action, and the other when the muscles governing the hand are passive and the action of the forearm flings the hand down or out. and the action of the forearm flings the hand down or out.

It is this possibility of flinging the hand down or out through the wrist joint which gives the wrist a very specialized value for the pianist. It means, as with the crack of the whip, that power used through a very small arc can produce the movement which will cover a much wider are of distance. Thus, a quick small movement at the elbow can fling the hand in such a manner that it will cover distance-horizontal, vertical, and in-and-out-expertly. This is great conservation in movement. A prime necessity of speed and brilliance is a compactness in the use of power for control of distance as well as for tone. There has been much discussion concerning a "loose wrist." The wrist is only effectively "loose" when it allows an action farther back in the arm to propel the hand through an are of distance. Then its "looseness" is of the utmost importance.

------


The books/essays later on to describe the usage of this technique for the Chopin Etudes Op 10 no 7 (fast alternating double thirds and sixths) as well as as the Op 25 no 10 (the octave etude). It's also a little more complicated at top speed then this passage describes as this was written at an earlier stage, it becomes more of flutter and "fluid" rather than distinct up and down modes. Even her student who edited the written work says so in the preface:

"There is a particularly good illustration of alternating action in the analysis of the Chopin Etude, Op. 10, No. 7. At a later stage the alternating action became refined into a kind of flutter of the hand being shaken by the forearm and upper arm when the Etude was played at top speed."

And although this is what is needed for "fast articulation", in the Whiteside model, articulation is subordinate and captured inside of more basic rhythmic motions akin to a walking or running gait. (In fact. a homology comparison between the lower and upper extremity systems--coordinated with the torso and spine of course--can provide some useful instincts.)



Re: I don't get Taubman rotation [Re: jazzyprof] #2550027
06/17/16 03:12 AM
06/17/16 03:12 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,365
London
C
chopin_r_us Offline
2000 Post Club Member
chopin_r_us  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
C

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,365
London
FWIW I do sense finger (and thumb) movement in the octaves from the Ab Polonaise. It's a kind of flick inwards with the nail joints.

Re: I don't get Taubman rotation [Re: Crit] #2868522
07/11/19 09:19 PM
07/11/19 09:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1
J
Jennygolightly Offline
Junior Member
Jennygolightly  Offline
Junior Member
J

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1
You can actually use the video posted above and use the gear at the bottom to change the speed to .25.

Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways
New Topics - Multiple Forums
How to connect Ravenscroft to Kawai MP10
by brettr. 07/22/19 11:38 PM
Why doesn't Pianoteq6 sound good for me - help?
by scotiwis. 07/22/19 11:24 PM
New Hammers Dead or Alive Test Suggestions
by Chernobieff Piano. 07/22/19 10:54 PM
Portland piano store shopping ?
by Coda9. 07/22/19 08:58 PM
What's Hot!!
PIANO TEACHERS Please read this!
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics193,131
Posts2,850,827
Members93,954
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1