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Did Liszt write the first "water pieces"? #2868512
07/11/19 08:30 PM
07/11/19 08:30 PM
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pianoloverus Offline OP
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pianoloverus  Offline OP
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Meaning piano pieces imitating water(and not boats on the water). I can't think of any before his Fountains of the Villa d'este, Au bord d'un source, Lake Wallenstadt(not sure if I would call this a water piece?).

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Re: Did Liszt write the first "water pieces"? [Re: pianoloverus] #2868518
07/11/19 08:55 PM
07/11/19 08:55 PM
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Schubert has the piano part depicting water in a few songs (Auf dem Wasser zu singen, Auf dem See etc), and Liszt transcribed one or two of them.

And don't forget Beethoven's Szene am Bach which has been transcribed by Liszt.

Did Freddy think of raindrops in Op.28/15?

Maybe someone has transcribed Handel's Water Music for piano too....


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Did Liszt write the first "water pieces"? [Re: pianoloverus] #2868556
07/11/19 11:52 PM
07/11/19 11:52 PM
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I am on a Liszt trip right now and I have to say I agree that he really started the water thing, with due respect to Schubert whose waterfall motif is a trifle lame. So this year I've been learning Au bord and Jeux d'eau (along with Vallee d'Obermann, which I know is irrelevant). I've also been learning Ravel's Jeux d'eau, so I guess it's a total "water" trip. I consider both of the Liszt works to be masterpieces. Au bord d'une source is a bit different because it's ripples and sprinkles of water from a spring, but Jeux d'eau really is fountains; you can almost see the rainbow effects in the glistening figurations that make up the whole middle section of the piece. To me, Ravel's Jeux d'eau is less impressionistic, more realistic, if that makes sense.

So yes, I think Liszt is the water piece initiator. Op. 28 No. 15? I don't think so. Handel's Water Music? Music to be performed on the water. Beethoven 6? Merely evocative of the emotions associated with existing near a creek and certainly not a musical painting of water stuff.


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Re: Did Liszt write the first "water pieces"? [Re: pianoloverus] #2868647
07/12/19 08:04 AM
07/12/19 08:04 AM
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Brendan Offline
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Meaning piano pieces imitating water(and not boats on the water). I can't think of any before his Fountains of the Villa d'este, Au bord d'un source, Lake Wallenstadt(not sure if I would call this a water piece?).


He did it first, and they're all wonderful pieces of music. Wallenstadt is definitely a water piece IMO and a great encore.

Re: Did Liszt write the first "water pieces"? [Re: bennevis] #2868686
07/12/19 10:24 AM
07/12/19 10:24 AM
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Maryland, USA
scriabinfanatic Offline
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Originally Posted by bennevis


Did Freddy think of raindrops in Op.28/15?



According to Alan Walker in his new Chopin bio, the raindrop association with that prelude was Sand's idea, and Chopin denied it when she suggested it to him.

Re: Did Liszt write the first "water pieces"? [Re: SiFi] #2868687
07/12/19 10:35 AM
07/12/19 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by SiFi
I am on a Liszt trip right now and I have to say I agree that he really started the water thing, with due respect to Schubert whose waterfall motif is a trifle lame. So this year I've been learning Au bord and Jeux d'eau (along with Vallee d'Obermann, which I know is irrelevant). I've also been learning Ravel's Jeux d'eau, so I guess it's a total "water" trip.


Here's another "water" piano masterpiece I suggest for your next water piece: Griffes' "The Fountain of the Acqua Paola." There's a very good performance of it by a young fella here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlpWbKYRbxs

Re: Did Liszt write the first "water pieces"? [Re: pianoloverus] #2868717
07/12/19 12:07 PM
07/12/19 12:07 PM
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WhoDwaldi Offline
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There's a difference between music for floating on water and music in imitation of water. 😆 I don't think Handel could handle the latter.

"Au bord" is gnarly, but worth it.

The Liszt Concerto No. 2 is rather watery or sparkly in places, though not specifically programmatic.

Chopin's "Ocean" Etude?



WhoDwaldi
Howard (by Kawai) 5' 10"
Re: Did Liszt write the first "water pieces"? [Re: pianoloverus] #2868732
07/12/19 12:32 PM
07/12/19 12:32 PM
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WhoDwaldi Offline
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And Chopin's "Raindrop" Prelude (regardless of whoever gave nicknames)?

But, Liszt does seem to be more legitimately pioneering in the bells, water, and birds (maybe) categories.


WhoDwaldi
Howard (by Kawai) 5' 10"
Re: Did Liszt write the first "water pieces"? [Re: WhoDwaldi] #2868748
07/12/19 01:01 PM
07/12/19 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
And Chopin's "Raindrop" Prelude (regardless of whoever gave nicknames)?

But, Liszt does seem to be more legitimately pioneering in the bells, water, and birds (maybe) categories.
My guess is that Couperin and/or Rameau wrote pieces in imitation of birds although I can't name them. Even if Chopin named his Raindrop Prelude(which seems highly unlikely) it really doesn't imitate water IMO.

Re: Did Liszt write the first "water pieces"? [Re: pianoloverus] #2868755
07/12/19 01:20 PM
07/12/19 01:20 PM
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Rameau wrote 2 pieces on birds: le rappel des oiseaux and la poule. LC Daquin wrote also the well known coucou. Several pieces on birds by F. Couperin. He also composed 2 pieces with water: les ondes in his 5th keyboard order and les gondoles de Delos in the 23rd.

Re: Did Liszt write the first "water pieces"? [Re: pianoloverus] #2868756
07/12/19 01:21 PM
07/12/19 01:21 PM
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WhoDwaldi Offline
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
And Chopin's "Raindrop" Prelude (regardless of whoever gave nicknames)?

But, Liszt does seem to be more legitimately pioneering in the bells, water, and birds (maybe) categories.
My guess is that Couperin and/or Rameau wrote pieces in imitation of birds although I can't name them. Even if Chopin named his Raindrop Prelude(which seems highly unlikely) it really doesn't imitate water IMO.


Drips a little. 😁

With birds being melodic and ornamented, the musical references are earlier. Water seems to require more chromaticism and advanced harmony.


WhoDwaldi
Howard (by Kawai) 5' 10"
Re: Did Liszt write the first "water pieces"? [Re: pianoloverus] #2868757
07/12/19 01:23 PM
07/12/19 01:23 PM
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Maryland, USA
scriabinfanatic Offline
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Geez am I on everybody's ignore list? To reiterate: Chopin did not name that prelude "Raindrop," Sand did.

Re: Did Liszt write the first "water pieces"? [Re: scriabinfanatic] #2868764
07/12/19 01:40 PM
07/12/19 01:40 PM
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WhoDwaldi Offline
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Originally Posted by scriabinfanatic
Geez am I on everybody's ignore list? To reiterate: Chopin did not name that prelude "Raindrop," Sand did.


Sorry about that. I did fly right through the earlier raindrop comments like a mosquito. 😆

Makes sense about Sand, but it's more fun to blame Hans von Bulow for any Chopin nicknames.


WhoDwaldi
Howard (by Kawai) 5' 10"
Re: Did Liszt write the first "water pieces"? [Re: WhoDwaldi] #2868839
07/12/19 05:26 PM
07/12/19 05:26 PM
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NobleHouse Offline
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Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
Originally Posted by scriabinfanatic
Geez am I on everybody's ignore list? To reiterate: Chopin did not name that prelude "Raindrop," Sand did.


Sorry about that. I did fly right through the earlier raindrop comments like a mosquito. 😆

Makes sense about Sand, but it's more fun to blame Hans von Bulow for any Chopin nicknames.



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