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Re: Speculations about the different Kawai piano engines [Re: magicpiano] #2868373
07/11/19 12:15 PM
07/11/19 12:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,048
France
Frédéric L Offline
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Frédéric L  Offline
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Isn’t the P515 a portable Clavinova. It has even the VRM modelisation.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
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Re: Speculations about the different Kawai piano engines [Re: Frédéric L] #2868378
07/11/19 12:31 PM
07/11/19 12:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
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Europe
JoeT Offline
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Isn’t the P515 a portable Clavinova. It has even the VRM modelisation.

It kinda is, that's why I got it in the first place. And it works with the SmartPianist app.

But I wouldn't naively assume, that the sample size is on par with lets say the AvantGrand models, even when the sample source is the same.

Instead of guessing (and later on people basing their decisions on these wrong guesses, including "NWX keys being plastic with wooden side panels"), a more sensible approach would be digitally record a standard MIDI file like the DPBSD one and then compare digital output of various models side-by-side. If the tone generator is identical, the digital output should be bit-identical as well.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Speculations about the different Kawai piano engines [Re: JoeT] #2868416
07/11/19 02:35 PM
07/11/19 02:35 PM
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magicpiano Offline OP
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by magicpiano
That's interesting. So in 2019, in the 4-500$ range, they still do single-layer-sampled keyboards? That's very disappointing.

Yeah, I also think that your idea of 4 or 6 layers in the more expensive digital pianos is bogus. They are not needed if you have technology like "Harmonic Imaging". Though I found a single layer sample is always a bit lacking in the pianissimo department.


As I said in the first post of this thread, about "Progressive Harmonic Imaging", all Kawai tells us is that it uses a "larger tonal database to provide greater tonal details throughout the dynamic range". Now, being that from the DPBSD Project data, the length of the samples between one of the last HI digital pianos and one with the PHI engine are the same (I compared the data from the ES100 which uses HI engine, and the CN33 which uses PHI engine), and the number of keys sampled is the same in both, my guess is that PHI uses more velocity layers. Otherwise what could be that "larger tonal database" for? But of course we don't know the exact number and Kawai will never tell us this info. Or maybe Kawai fooled us all and they use 1 velocity layer on their newest SK-EX Rendering engine too. laugh

Quote


My ear guesstimate for my P-515 is 3 layers for the Bösendorfer sample, which seems enough with seamless layer morphing. I'm unable to discern the exact number of layers for CFX, but I would be surprised if there were much more. It's a P-series after all.

Of course, compared to the 32 MB of the ES100/ES110 memory-wise the P-515 is in the hundreds of MB range already.

That's interesting too... I found this post when they say the ES110 (HI) has 32MB and a CN27 (PHI) has 64MB. CS8 (HI-XL) has 512MB. So:

"Progressive Harmonic Imaging" DATA = 2x that of "Harmonic Imaging"
"Harmonic Imaging XL" DATA = 8x (!) that of "Progressive Harmonic Imaging"

But HI and PHI share the same number and length for the samples, so that "2x" is surely for the velocity layers, doubled on the PHI.
The HI-XL engine has longer samples (about the double, in length, of those in the PHI), so the remaining space could be for the SK-5 piano samples and maybe more velocity layers. But we don't know if they use ALL the 512MB. it could be that they use less than 512MB but a little more of 256MB... In this case, the HI-XL engine should have just longer samples, but the same velocity layers of the PHI.

Anyway, it's incredible how they managed to make those digital pianos sound very well with so few velocity layers. My CN37 doesn't sound like a VST with 20 unlooped velocity layers, but it's very nice to play and to listen to, even in pianissimo parts, although it lacks some detail (and when a note enters in its looping sustain stage I feel it loses its naturalness and becomes 'digital').

Re: Speculations about the different Kawai piano engines [Re: magicpiano] #2868418
07/11/19 02:43 PM
07/11/19 02:43 PM
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Europe
JoeT Offline
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Your CN37 has much more sounds (352) than the ES110 (19), that's why it needs more memory to store the samples. The EX concert grand implementation can still be the exact same one.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Speculations about the different Kawai piano engines [Re: magicpiano] #2868436
07/11/19 04:02 PM
07/11/19 04:02 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,615
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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Well ... aren't most of those 352 sounds just "toy" sounds? Not much memory needed for those.
Only the pianos use much memory.

Re: Speculations about the different Kawai piano engines [Re: magicpiano] #2868437
07/11/19 04:04 PM
07/11/19 04:04 PM
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Posts: 8,615
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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Yamaha used to provide the number of layers in the specs. Does anyone do that anymore?
Originally Posted by magicpiano
As I said in the first post of this thread, about "Progressive Harmonic Imaging", all Kawai tells us is that it uses a "larger tonal database to provide greater tonal details throughout the dynamic range".

Now, being that from the DPBSD Project data, the length of the samples between one of the last HI digital pianos and one with the PHI engine are the same (I compared the data from the ES100 which uses HI engine, and the CN33 which uses PHI engine), and the number of keys sampled is the same in both, my guess is that PHI uses more velocity layers.

Otherwise what could be that "larger tonal database" for? But of course we don't know the exact number and Kawai will never tell us this info. Or maybe Kawai fooled us all and they use 1 velocity layer on their newest SK-EX Rendering engine too. laugh

Re: Speculations about the different Kawai piano engines [Re: MacMacMac] #2868438
07/11/19 04:06 PM
07/11/19 04:06 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
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Europe
JoeT Offline
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Yamaha used to provide the number of layers in the specs. Does anyone do that anymore?

I think all manufacturers stopped doing that since they got into layer morphing and modeling.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Speculations about the different Kawai piano engines [Re: magicpiano] #2868467
07/11/19 05:30 PM
07/11/19 05:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,615
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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Raleigh, North Carolina
I found the layers specs in the CLP200-series and CLP300-series manuals.
Those had 3, 4, or 5 layers depending on the model.
The specs were absent in the 400, 500, and 600 manuals.

Were they ashamed of the low numbers at a time when VST software generally offered 8 or 10 or more layers?
Was it better for them to hide their low specs to conceal their deficiencies?

Re: Speculations about the different Kawai piano engines [Re: magicpiano] #2868475
07/11/19 06:02 PM
07/11/19 06:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,048
France
Frédéric L Offline
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Frédéric L  Offline
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France
On some old CLP, layers where not blended, the number of layers was more important than now where the blend of lets say 4 layers makes all 127 different timbres and a continuous gradation.

I suppose few VST blend their samples. On Kontakt libraries, there is a matrix note x velocity regions and each region seems to have a single sample (not counting una corda, dampers, etc). The number of layers is mire important here.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 07/11/19 06:03 PM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Speculations about the different Kawai piano engines [Re: JoeT] #2868585
07/12/19 02:32 AM
07/12/19 02:32 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 136
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magicpiano Offline OP
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Your CN37 has much more sounds (352) than the ES110 (19), that's why it needs more memory to store the samples. The EX concert grand implementation can still be the exact same one.
The CN27 has 64MB but I don't know how much storage space has the CN37.

The memory for the other effects should be much smaller compared to the piano sounds. Nearly all of the 'non-piano' instruments sound not much different (maybe a little cleaner) from my old Roland XP-50 (a keyboard/synth from the 90s, with 512 waveforms used by 640 patches stored in 8MB of memory, that at the time was a very big storage space for a synth).

So maybe the CN37 has 64MB+8MB or 64MB+16MB or a single 128MB chip with much unused space.

Anyway, to me the EX piano sounds more realistic on my CN37 than on an ES100/110. But that could be because the CN37 adds 3 more resonance effects (string resonance, undumped string resonance, cabinet resonance).

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