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Need help from Ed McMorrow! (Or anyone about Capo D'astro) #2868021
07/10/19 02:47 PM
07/10/19 02:47 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 24
Bangkok, Thailand
L
LovingPianos Offline OP
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LovingPianos  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 24
Bangkok, Thailand
Hello!

We tried shooting Ed a email and a private message...none worked since the email we sent to his address failed (it says there is no one at this address), and as some people know, his PM is over the limit.

For some information, we got hold of an Estonia concert grand, and decided to do some restoration works on it. We took the iron-cast frame out of the piano, and this is what brought us to this. Here is a link to the topic:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2862993/estonia-concert-grand.html#Post2862993

Also, here is a quote that the user "Ando" posted:

"You should check in with Ed McMorrow here on the forum regarding this point. He is very adamant that a correct "V"profile must be observed when reshaping the capo d'astro - not just removing grooves. He believes it is responsible for a lot of unpleasant sounds in pianos - even new ones. You really want to get that sorted now rather than have to live with having done it improperly. No disrespect to your mentor in this project, but he may not be up to speed on this particular issue - even if he does advocate reshaping/resurfacing. What Ed has said on this makes total sense to me."

We basically know nothing about this specific task. As far as we know, the ridge of the capo d'astro touches and bends the strings, which also defines the speaking length of the strings. This ridge will over time become worn out by the strings, creating grooves that produces unwanted vibration.

Of course our capo d'astro isn't in such critical condition as having severe noise issues, but below we include some photos of the current condition, and would like you to advise what we should do. Our piano technician recommended basic groove removal, but he didn't mention any specific method as to how much it should be done.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Thank you very much in advance, and a prompt reply (from dear Mr. Ed, or anyone in the know) will be much appreciated!

SK
crazy crazy

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Re: Need help from Ed McMorrow! (Or anyone about Capo D'astro) [Re: LovingPianos] #2868038
07/10/19 03:23 PM
07/10/19 03:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 173
Washington State
AWilley Offline

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AWilley  Offline

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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 173
Washington State
Ed says he's currently at a convention and off-line, but that he will reply next week.

Paraphrasing from memory... I think Ed's position is something along the lines of having the V-bar being made from a soft material (a.k.a. not hardening the cast iron) and with a sharp V-like profile. That lets each string create its own small groove for a clean termination. But putting a sharp profile on a v-bar that has been hardened is bad because you'll break strings. I don't remember precisely what he doesn't like about the more traditional rounded termination that you would get with, say, a guitar fret crowning file. This is second hand so add as many grains of salt as you like.


Anthony Willey, RPT
PianoMeter
Willey Piano Tuning
Re: Need help from Ed McMorrow! (Or anyone about Capo D'astro) [Re: LovingPianos] #2868052
07/10/19 04:16 PM
07/10/19 04:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,726
Oakland
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BDB Offline
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Keep in mind that a lot of people disagree with Ed about how important the shape of the bar is. If everyone did, it would not be an issue.


Semipro Tech
Re: Need help from Ed McMorrow! (Or anyone about Capo D'astro) [Re: LovingPianos] #2868055
07/10/19 04:37 PM
07/10/19 04:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,596
New Hampshire
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P W Grey Offline
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P W Grey  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,596
New Hampshire
SK,

It would appear from the photos that all you need to do is file that vbar SLIGHTLY rounded. The current profile looks pretty good except that it is flat on the bottom where it should be a nice smooth polished curve. Ed feels that a 1mm - 1.5mm radius is ideal. I agree with that I shoot for that in my practice. I don't always get it that accurate, but evenness and consistency are important.

Use a small flat file to shape it up, then polish with emery cloth. At least that is what I do. Take care with it and it will reward you.

Pwg

Last edited by P W Grey; 07/10/19 04:39 PM.

Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Need help from Ed McMorrow! (Or anyone about Capo D'astro) [Re: LovingPianos] #2868144
07/10/19 09:19 PM
07/10/19 09:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,070
Michigan
K
kpembrook Offline
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kpembrook  Offline
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K

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,070
Michigan
Ed is here at the PTG convention. He was in the last class I attended today.

I have been following Ed's protocol for some time now -- which is to shape (file/grind, whatever) it to an actual "V" shape. (Well, they are also called a v-bar). Maybe a 45ยบ included angle but the main thing is not the angle but that it comes to and actual line rather than a surface. String pressure will self-machine whatever necessary minimal surface is needed to support the pressure.

In my experience this does result in greater clarity in the treble.


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
Re: Need help from Ed McMorrow! (Or anyone about Capo D'astro) [Re: kpembrook] #2869345
07/14/19 08:08 PM
07/14/19 08:08 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,294
Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,294
Seattle, WA USA
I am back!

I appreciate the efforts to answer the question. What Keith says captures my method best.

Kawai now shapes V-bars very similar to what I have been doing since about 1978. The engineering principle is to allow the string to pivot at the V-bar. It is the stiffness of the wire that drives this.

Piano wire is made by drawing a high-carbon steel rod through successively smaller holes in diamond hard steel that reduce the diameter in steps and periodically draws it through an oil bath to cool it in a very controlled way.

Makers who harden the V-bar are subjecting the wire to another pass through a diamond tool because when you harden a grey iron casting the carbon changes from graphite form to diamond like.

BDB, I just returned from the PTG Convention, I talked with dozens of rebuilders who are shaping V-bars to V-shape and have been doing so for a couple of decades. And now with Kawai doing V-bar testing that comes to the same conclusion as mine and producing many production pianos with V-shaped V-bars makes my specifications settled best practices.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Need help from Ed McMorrow! (Or anyone about Capo D'astro) [Re: LovingPianos] #2869453
07/15/19 09:30 AM
07/15/19 09:30 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 478
Montreal
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pyropaul Offline
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pyropaul  Offline
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Posts: 478
Montreal
There's no such thing as "diamond hard" steel and the carbon in steel is in martensite in hardened steel and austenite in soft steel. Heat treating grey iron doesn't change the graphite that's present either - and it certainly cannot transform it into diamond! See https://www.totalmateria.com/page.aspx?ID=CheckArticle&site=kts&NM=115

Re: Need help from Ed McMorrow! (Or anyone about Capo D'astro) [Re: pyropaul] #2869482
07/15/19 10:56 AM
07/15/19 10:56 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,294
Seattle, WA USA
E
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,294
Seattle, WA USA
pyropaul, Thank you for link describing the finer details of hardening ferrous products. I used phrases to describe aspects of hardening in simpler terms that of course are not the most accurate definitions. Reducing the effects of the austentite to martensite transformation of grey iron to diamond is not accurate, but it is descriptive of the feel when one works the metal with cutting tools, and when feeling how the strings move over a hard V-bar during tuning. That is why I use it. I don't want to bore people with cubic centered dislocations and carbon intrusions.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Need help from Ed McMorrow! (Or anyone about Capo D'astro) [Re: LovingPianos] #2869493
07/15/19 11:31 AM
07/15/19 11:31 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,726
Oakland
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BDB Offline
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Some people never seem to be able to explain things clearly or accurately. It is up to the listeners to decide whether it makes any sense or not.


Semipro Tech
Re: Need help from Ed McMorrow! (Or anyone about Capo D'astro) [Re: LovingPianos] #2869544
07/15/19 02:03 PM
07/15/19 02:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 510
Chernobieff Piano Offline
500 Post Club Member
Chernobieff Piano  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 510
ED, I think pyropaul destroyed your explanation of changing graphite to diamond like. One thing for sure, there are capos that exhibit different hardness. I do like the description that you can hear it with a file.
-chris


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: Need help from Ed McMorrow! (Or anyone about Capo D'astro) [Re: BDB] #2869674
07/15/19 10:33 PM
07/15/19 10:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,294
Seattle, WA USA
E
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,294
Seattle, WA USA
BDB, I noticed you never released your paper on how to derive an equal tempered scale using Combinatorials. So you can save your tiresome snarkiness for someone else. At least you are still "pithy". That I can appreciate.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Need help from Ed McMorrow! (Or anyone about Capo D'astro) [Re: LovingPianos] #2869685
07/15/19 11:21 PM
07/15/19 11:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,294
Seattle, WA USA
E
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
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E

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,294
Seattle, WA USA
Chernobief, Am I correct to assume you prefer your V-bars unhardened and V-shaped?


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Need help from Ed McMorrow! (Or anyone about Capo D'astro) [Re: LovingPianos] #2869798
07/16/19 10:59 AM
07/16/19 10:59 AM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 510
Chernobieff Piano Offline
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Chernobieff Piano  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 510
Hey Edd,
Two decades ago I was first trained to string a piano, as you know, by Roger. Shaping the V-bar to a V shape was the standard, so i thought it was the normal thing to do, and i have done so ever since. But I have seen exceptions that also sounded amazingly clear. I have an old AB Chase upright with a round rod termination that has no buzzing or false beats. This makes me think the V shape is not critical, but at the same time, why not take advantage of what seems to be a good idea and clean up the V-bar.
The hardness of the V-bar sounds theoretical in nature, except to the foundry casting the plate. Otherwise you're kinda stuck with whats there.

Can you link to equal tempered scale using Combinatorials?
Thanks Edd


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: Need help from Ed McMorrow! (Or anyone about Capo D'astro) [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2869853
07/16/19 02:35 PM
07/16/19 02:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,726
Oakland
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BDB Offline
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Oakland
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
BDB, I noticed you never released your paper on how to derive an equal tempered scale using Combinatorials. So you can save your tiresome snarkiness for someone else. At least you are still "pithy". That I can appreciate.


The reason I have not explained how to derive an equal tempered scale using Combinatorials is because I never claimed to do that. I did say that beats could be derived from combinatorial mathematics, but I do not know a good way of explaining that. It is something like "Air molecules are moved towards one's ears so many times per second from one source, and some at some other rate from another source. The times that both sources move forward is the difference of those rates." There is more about when they are moving the air in opposite directions, but people can figure that out for themselves.

Most of the time I try to give clear explanations of what I claim. But this is rather vague, and I know it. But it only deals with beats, not with temperament.


Semipro Tech

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