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Re: Boston 178 vs Kawai GX2 vs Yamaha C3X? [Re: crownano] #2868087 07/10/19 04:42 PM
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crownano Offline OP
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Sounds like Boston has mellow tune, may be better on single note, but not as good when it comes to color (which involves multiple or series of notes). Is this a fair statement?

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Re: Boston 178 vs Kawai GX2 vs Yamaha C3X? [Re: crownano] #2868095 07/10/19 05:32 PM
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To me color is the change in sound as you strike a note from pp to ff. At fff, it become metallic and angry. At ppp it’s soft and gentle. The color is what happens in between. The lesser pianos have less difference there: sound gets louder as you hit harder, but that’s all.

Re: Boston 178 vs Kawai GX2 vs Yamaha C3X? [Re: ShiroKuro] #2868097 07/10/19 05:39 PM
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Lady Bird Offline
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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Rich, so just to confirm:

Quote
Less color is less desirable to any pianist who is looking for control and expression when they play. It is the major downfall of Boston pianos, IMHO.


So do you mean that you think the Boston grands are not as good in this regard compared to the Kawai or Yamaha models?

I am particularly interested since I recently played a Boston GP163 and am planning to test-play some Kawai grands in similar sizes (mid-5 foot up to 6ish sizes) on my next dealer-visit.

At one time tuning stability used to be a problem in Boston uprights but has been sorted out now.I do believe I read this on Piano Buyer (brand profiles )
I do however remember the practice rooms at university, they had Steinway uprights which were always out of tune ! Everyone would try and find a
grand
As far as Boston grands I have never heard of this.
I wonder would they need 3 or more tunings a year?

Last edited by Lady Bird; 07/10/19 05:42 PM. Reason: Missing word
Re: Boston 178 vs Kawai GX2 vs Yamaha C3X? [Re: Rich Galassini] #2868113 07/10/19 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich Galassini
、
Originally Posted by Ukihune

I think if you play pieces after Beethoven more often, then the color and action will be more important so CX/GX would be better; if you play Baroque (besides polyphony pieces) and classical more often, then Boston


I am sorry, but I respectfully disagree with this statement. A pianist of any style is looking for expression, color, dynamics, and possibilities to bring their music to life. Less color is less desirable to any pianist who is looking for control and expression when they play. It is the major downfall of Boston pianos, IMHO.



Certainly they need color too... but unless it's a few top-tier pianos, it's hard to have a model both good at single tone and action.Yamaha IMHO does not focus too much on single sound quality in CX as it is aiming at color change. Boston, Bosendorfer, and most European pianos are more single-tone oriented; Yamaha, Steinway, etc. are color change oriented.


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Re: Boston 178 vs Kawai GX2 vs Yamaha C3X? [Re: crownano] #2868133 07/10/19 07:39 PM
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Rich made some excellent points. Most of the times, sluggishness of the action is a result of increased friction between the pins and the felt. It's almost never the wooden parts.

Boston pianos are designed by Steinway, but made in the Kawai factory.
There's an interesting question to ponder: Why would any piano manufacturer make better pianos for others instead of their own?
Essentially, you're deciding between a Yamaha and two Kawai pianos.

Just my two cents, I wish you the best of luck in your search.


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Re: Boston 178 vs Kawai GX2 vs Yamaha C3X? [Re: crownano] #2868137 07/10/19 07:55 PM
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I think we have heard enough of the idea that Kawai
would deliberately make Boston pianos not as well
as KawaI pianos Steinways would be a very important important client for Kawai to make the best pianos
possible, especially since Steinways is so proud of
its Boston pianos.Well I am inexperienced in quality control of these instruments.That however is my understanding and some experience with Boston grands.

Re: Boston 178 vs Kawai GX2 vs Yamaha C3X? [Re: Emery Wang] #2868162 07/10/19 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Emery Wang
Originally Posted by Rich Galassini


The Kawai action is still bushed with traditional cloth bushings and they use traditional bushing pins. That is where the typical issues come from, particularly from a new-ish piano.

Hi Rich. What problems are you finding with cloth bushings and traditional pins on newer pianos? Do they tend to be tight? Good to know if so, but it would suck having to re-bush the pins on a new piano.

Thanks.



Hi Emery,

I am not finding problems, I am referring to the method of creating a pivot point or joint in any piano action. I am describing well known characteristics of any piano action. The wool cloth that make up traditional bushings "breathe". They change. They become swollen in high humidity and they shrink in low humidity. This change can cause any number of issues with a piano action and are most evident as a piano settles in.

Rebushing and repinning actions is not something that is typical.


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Re: Boston 178 vs Kawai GX2 vs Yamaha C3X? [Re: ShiroKuro] #2868163 07/10/19 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro

So do you mean that you think the Boston grands are not as good in this regard compared to the Kawai or Yamaha models?

I am particularly interested since I recently played a Boston GP163 and am planning to test-play some Kawai grands in similar sizes (mid-5 foot up to 6ish sizes) on my next dealer-visit.


Hi Shirokuro,

Yes, that is my feeling. My best advice is for you to play the pianos. Listen to them and tell us what YOU think.


Rich Galassini
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Re: Boston 178 vs Kawai GX2 vs Yamaha C3X? [Re: Ukihune] #2868165 07/10/19 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Ukihune

Certainly they need color too... but unless it's a few top-tier pianos, it's hard to have a model both good at single tone and action.Yamaha IMHO does not focus too much on single sound quality in CX as it is aiming at color change. Boston, Bosendorfer, and most European pianos are more single-tone oriented; Yamaha, Steinway, etc. are color change oriented.


Is Kawai GX more color change oriented or single tone oriented?

Re: Boston 178 vs Kawai GX2 vs Yamaha C3X? [Re: Rich Galassini] #2868171 07/10/19 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich Galassini

Hi Emery,

I am not finding problems, I am referring to the method of creating a pivot point or joint in any piano action. I am describing well known characteristics of any piano action. The wool cloth that make up traditional bushings "breathe". They change. They become swollen in high humidity and they shrink in low humidity. This change can cause any number of issues with a piano action and are most evident as a piano settles in.

Rebushing and repinning actions is not something that is typical.

OK, makes sense. Thanks Rich. Would love to visit your store one day!


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Re: Boston 178 vs Kawai GX2 vs Yamaha C3X? [Re: crownano] #2868181 07/10/19 11:11 PM
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Lady Bird Offline
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Originally Posted by crownano
Originally Posted by Ukihune

Certainly they need color too... but unless it's a few top-tier pianos, it's hard to have a model both good at single tone and action.Yamaha IMHO does not focus too much on single sound quality in CX as it is aiming at color change. Boston, Bosendorfer, and most European pianos are more single-tone oriented; Yamaha, Steinway, etc. are color change oriented.


Is Kawai GX more color change oriented or single tone oriented?

Colour Change ? You mean like a color change sapphire or a colour change garnet ?

Last edited by Lady Bird; 07/10/19 11:12 PM. Reason: Missing word
Re: Boston 178 vs Kawai GX2 vs Yamaha C3X? [Re: Lady Bird] #2868184 07/10/19 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird

Colour Change ? You mean like a color change sapphire or a colour change garnet ?


I was simply using Ukihune's word. I think he means something similar to what redfish1901 said:
Originally Posted by redfish1901

To me color is the change in sound as you strike a note from pp to ff. At fff, it become metallic and angry. At ppp it’s soft and gentle. The color is what happens in between.

Last edited by crownano; 07/10/19 11:28 PM.
Re: Boston 178 vs Kawai GX2 vs Yamaha C3X? [Re: crownano] #2868185 07/10/19 11:35 PM
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OK, Thanks,Metallic does not sound good .If it sounds
matallic in any dynamic range I think the piano would
need voicing.
I experience change of colour more with different key
signatures and even different notes.

Re: Boston 178 vs Kawai GX2 vs Yamaha C3X? [Re: Lady Bird] #2868201 07/11/19 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
OK, Thanks,Metallic does not sound good .If it sounds
matallic in any dynamic range I think the piano would
need voicing.
I experience change of colour more with different key
signatures and even different notes.

Thanks! It seems most people think:
Single note: Boston > Yamaha CX
Dynamics/Color: Boston < Yamaha CX

Where does Kawai GX rank?

Re: Boston 178 vs Kawai GX2 vs Yamaha C3X? [Re: crownano] #2868462 07/11/19 04:08 PM
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I used to own a Boston GP-178 from 1999 to 2003. I traveled around and tried a number of pianos including similar size Yamaha and Kawai before I made the purchase. I selected the Boston because (to me) it had the best dynamics and color. I could easily bring out the inner voice when I played Brahms intermezzi and ballades. I only thing I did not like about the piano was I could hear the difference in tonal quality of the notes at the bass/tenor transition. To be fair, I could hear the same tonal problem in all the Yamahas and Kawais I had tried at that time. I ended up selling the Boston and purchasing a larger piano.

Forgive me for saying this, but you should put more trust in your own ears than what people are telling you. Whatever piano you end up buying is YOUR piano. You are the one who will be paying for it, playing it and listening to it. Take your time, play all the pianos on your short list repeatedly, and buy the one that speaks to you. If they all sound and play the same to you, buy the one that costs the least and use the saved money to hire a reputable piano tech to prep the piano to the n-th degree and/or spend it on piano lessons, piano books, piano accessories, or something else on your wish list.

Note that the Yamahas and Kawais I tried at that time were the C and RX series, not the current CX and GX series, respectively. The current series are improvement over the previous ones, and (to me) they have better dynamic and color ranges, but the same can be said of the Boston GP PE II series.

Eric

Re: Boston 178 vs Kawai GX2 vs Yamaha C3X? [Re: crownano] #2868499 07/11/19 06:44 PM
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Thanks Eric. I will play them more. The thing is you cannot play all three pianos one right after another at the same place. You have to go from one dealer to another. This makes it harder to compare:(

Re: Boston 178 vs Kawai GX2 vs Yamaha C3X? [Re: crownano] #2868502 07/11/19 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by crownano
Thanks Eric. I will play them more. The thing is you cannot play all three pianos one right after another at the same place. You have to go from one dealer to another. This makes it harder to compare:(


This, I know exactly what you mean!!

Hang in there, it will all become clear to you eventually!


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Proud owner of a Yamaha C2

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Re: Boston 178 vs Kawai GX2 vs Yamaha C3X? [Re: crownano] #2868504 07/11/19 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by crownano
The thing is you cannot play all three pianos one right after another at the same place. You have to go from one dealer to another. This makes it harder to compare:(

I understand what you're saying here - but I think it's useful to perhaps look at it this way: Your task is NOT to play these pianos and then deliver an objective report on their sound quality, playability, etc. Your task IS to play some pianos . . . and be tuned in to your own subjective reaction to the experience. Which one, after suitable exposure to those you're considering (and perhaps multiple experiences with those you've found most appealing) do you LIKE better?

If I have chocolate cake for dessert at different restaurants or friends' homes over a period of a week or two . . . I'm going to be able to tell you which one I (as in ME) like best! Maybe the Pillsbury judges wouldn't make the same assessment; maybe you wouldn't make the same assessment - but by golly I'd know which one I wanted for dessert again!

Sometimes, choices are as simple as this when deciding what you wish to live with over time. Focus on YOU and YOUR feelings and reactions!

Re: Boston 178 vs Kawai GX2 vs Yamaha C3X? [Re: crownano] #2868573 07/12/19 12:12 AM
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Let us hope though every piano you try is not "chocolate" You may never recover !

Re: Boston 178 vs Kawai GX2 vs Yamaha C3X? [Re: pwl] #2868595 07/12/19 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by pwl
Originally Posted by crownano
The thing is you cannot play all three pianos one right after another at the same place. You have to go from one dealer to another. This makes it harder to compare:(

I understand what you're saying here - but I think it's useful to perhaps look at it this way: Your task is NOT to play these pianos and then deliver an objective report on their sound quality, playability, etc. Your task IS to play some pianos . . . and be tuned in to your own subjective reaction to the experience. Which one, after suitable exposure to those you're considering (and perhaps multiple experiences with those you've found most appealing) do you LIKE better?

If I have chocolate cake for dessert at different restaurants or friends' homes over a period of a week or two . . . I'm going to be able to tell you which one I (as in ME) like best! Maybe the Pillsbury judges wouldn't make the same assessment; maybe you wouldn't make the same assessment - but by golly I'd know which one I wanted for dessert again!

Sometimes, choices are as simple as this when deciding what you wish to live with over time. Focus on YOU and YOUR feelings and reactions!


thumb yippie when I bought my current piano, I just used my very subjective impression, as simple as ‘ I don’t want to stop playing it’ and ‘I’ve never sounded better’. Did it really sound better than any other piano? I’m sure not but it felt like Goldilocks finding something that felt right. I’ve not regretted buying it for one minute. IMHO, sometimes we over analyze, particularly with expensive purchases. Go test the chocolate and find one you want go have again the next day.

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