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Re: Upper structure triads and extensions life or death struggle [Re: ZeroZero] #2867075
07/07/19 04:53 PM
07/07/19 04:53 PM
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rintincop Offline
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The benefit is that triads are easy to manipulate for a trained pianist.
You only need a few, don't focus on all possible cases.
Just use these 4 cases for the dominant 7th:

D/C7 (= C7 +11)

Ab/C7 (= C7 +9 b13 ; "alt")

Gb/C7 (= C7 b9 +11 ; "alt")

A/C7 (= C7 b9 13)

It's enough for the rest of your life!


Casio PX-S3000, PX-360. Mojo 61.1966 Mason & Hamlin. Rhodes Suitcase.
Previously: FP4, FP50, Kawai ES4, Kurzweil PC2X.
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Re: Upper structure triads and extensions life or death struggle [Re: ZeroZero] #2867091
07/07/19 05:38 PM
07/07/19 05:38 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 191
raleigh, nc
JazzPianoOnline Offline
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raleigh, nc
USTs are one of the most valuable techniques you can learn. You can use it them to harmonize melodies, comp, and improvise. They will give you the most bang for your practice buck!

The rule for their construction is that at least one tension has to be used in each triad. From this definition you can logic out all the possibilities (use 9 as root, 3rd, 5th, b9, #9, etc.) and let your ears guide you as to what works and what doesn't.

It can be a fun academic challenge to derive all possible USTs across all chord types but you can take your playing up several notches by learning just a few the commonly used USTs. There is diminishing returns in trying to learn every single one.

I've put together a lesson on them here:

https://www.jazzpianoonline.com/courses/two-handed-voicings-part-3-ust

Please take a look!


Bill
bill@jazzpianoonline.com
www.JazzPianoOnline.com
Online Jazz Piano Lessons
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Re: Upper structure triads and extensions life or death struggle [Re: rintincop] #2867239
07/08/19 04:37 AM
07/08/19 04:37 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 385
UK
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ZeroZero Offline OP
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Originally Posted by rintincop
The benefit is that triads are easy to manipulate for a trained pianist.
You only need a few, don't focus on all possible cases.
Just use these 4 cases for the dominant 7th:

D/C7 (= C7 +11)

Ab/C7 (= C7 +9 b13 ; "alt")

Gb/C7 (= C7 b9 +11 ; "alt")

A/C7 (= C7 b9 13)

It's enough for the rest of your life!


Thank you, I think this is useful to me I shall at least start with these, and inversions of.

Do you have any recommendations for voicing the minors and majors? This is my take on the advice: Majors 2 minor triad, 2 major (Lydian), Minors, well depends on type of minor and modal position.

Any insights into voice leading, beyond being cogniscent of the melody? Or will any of the above just do?

Last edited by ZeroZero; 07/08/19 04:45 AM.
Re: Upper structure triads and extensions life or death struggle [Re: ZeroZero] #2867246
07/08/19 05:06 AM
07/08/19 05:06 AM
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Nahum Offline
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Originally Posted by ZeroZero
Nahum I simply do not understand you. I have no idea at all how these two bars are a "solution". I dont even know what is question that is a solution to. I find the first chord near unplayable.
If your hands are small, you can play  broken chord.
Quote
I can mess around modally.
I apologize, but I didn't understand this.

Quote
I don't know what you mean by A and B positions
They appear in the book of Mark Levine on pages 42-43.

Quote
. I dont know how you could have move on to harmonic tensions without using upper structures
.
This is the natural order of things: first, separate tensions are added , that replace chord tones ; then these pitches are added together with chord tones , creating clusters; and then on this foundation you can move to the upper structures - the experience of teaching from 47 years. Perhaps you are trying to jump too high - the lack of continuity of learned material created "blind spots"; hence the OP.


Quote
I am sorry, with respect, but we are speaking different musical languages I fear.
The musical language of jazz is common to musicians from different countries; on which they communicate easily; even with a lack of knowledge of the spoken language; and it is studied along with theory. Personally, I didn’t have any problems with the musical language in my work with American, English and Italian musicians.

Re: Upper structure triads and extensions life or death struggle [Re: ZeroZero] #2867543
07/09/19 02:55 AM
07/09/19 02:55 AM
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Nahum Offline
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There are more things that it is desirable to know in relation to the upper structures.
The upper structures are mainly 4 types:

triad over triad ( D/ C);
the seventh over triad ( A-7/ Dm);
triad over the seventh ( Bb/ Cm7/b5);
seventh over seventh ( Gmaj7 /Cmaj7).

If the left hand should play below the middle C , it is advisable to use the open position of chord (drop 2). The right hand always plays in a closed position.

Voicing in the left hand is usually built at the root; however, there is also an alternative: start from 5 (not 5b ).

In the case of triad over a triad, it is desirable that the upper structure does not contain the pitch of the lower root.

The upper structures can be used for two purposes: to harmonize the melody, and to comp in improvisation. In the first case, it requires accurate conformity to melody ; in the second case, you can use it much freer (my example refers exactly to this).

Re: Upper structure triads and extensions life or death struggle [Re: Nahum] #2867563
07/09/19 05:04 AM
07/09/19 05:04 AM
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Posts: 1,421
uk south
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beeboss Online content
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Originally Posted by Nahum

The upper structures can be used for two purposes: to harmonize the melody, and to comp in improvisation.


Upper structures can also be a great way of generating lines that would be unlikely to be discovered in other ways.

Re: Upper structure triads and extensions life or death struggle [Re: beeboss] #2867580
07/09/19 07:11 AM
07/09/19 07:11 AM
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Nahum Offline
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Originally Posted by beeboss


Upper structures can also be a great way of generating lines that would be unlikely to be discovered in other ways.

Do you mean the extraction of the soprano line, or the internal voices?

Last edited by Nahum; 07/09/19 07:12 AM.
Re: Upper structure triads and extensions life or death struggle [Re: Nahum] #2867714
07/09/19 02:55 PM
07/09/19 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Nahum

Do you mean the extraction of the soprano line, or the internal voices?



Instead of playing the upper structure as a chord you can play the notes one after the other as part of a melodic line.

So many great lines can be made in this way - the upper structure triads are so strong that that the lines they generate are very powerful.

Re: Upper structure triads and extensions life or death struggle [Re: beeboss] #2867846
07/10/19 02:02 AM
07/10/19 02:02 AM
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Nahum Offline
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Originally Posted by beeboss
Originally Posted by Nahum

Do you mean the extraction of the soprano line, or the internal voices?



Instead of playing the upper structure as a chord you can play the notes one after the other as part of a melodic line.

So many great lines can be made in this way - the upper structure triads are so strong that that the lines they generate are very powerful.

You are right, and I should be ashamed - as if I never played the solos of Bill Evans and Chick Corea, and didn't study the book of D. Liebman A Chromatic Approach to Jazz Harmony. The only apology - memory deteriorated.

Also forgot more details in relation to US .

You can play inversions of each chord in each hand; also in the left, if the chord is in the closed position and the bottom note does not descend below Bb3; in this case, voice - leading between chords is observed in each hand separately;

if you increase the distance between your hands, it is advisable to move to an open position in left hand, and in the right - double the soprano an octave lower ( block chord) . I personally begin to use soprano doubling when it rises to F 5.

Re: Upper structure triads and extensions life or death struggle [Re: Nahum] #2867882
07/10/19 05:42 AM
07/10/19 05:42 AM
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uk south
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beeboss Online content
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Originally Posted by Nahum

You are right, and I should be ashamed - as if I never played the solos of Bill Evans and Chick Corea, and didn't study the book of D. Liebman A Chromatic Approach to Jazz Harmony. The only apology - memory deteriorated.


No apology is needed Nahum.

I remember being pretty puzzled by that Leibman book.

Bergonzi as well has some good stuff on triad pairs. Well explained at a basic level by someone else here ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC2S8Vztvhs

Re: Upper structure triads and extensions life or death struggle [Re: beeboss] #2867902
07/10/19 07:22 AM
07/10/19 07:22 AM
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Nahum Offline
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Originally Posted by beeboss



I remember being pretty puzzled by that Leibman book.
Bergonzi as well has some good stuff on triad pairs. Well explained at a basic level by someone else here ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC2S8Vztvhs

In the 90s. Dave, along with Richie Beirach, gave a master class at our Academy. For my taste, he played overly like a jazz extremist; i.e. there is a place for it , but within reasonable limits.

I love Jeff's video lessons - they are very benevolent.

Last edited by Nahum; 07/10/19 07:22 AM.
Re: Upper structure triads and extensions life or death struggle [Re: ZeroZero] #2868103
07/10/19 06:54 PM
07/10/19 06:54 PM
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Posts: 48
equatorial asia
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Seems like all of the above-recommended upper structure triads contain only notes from the so-called Barry Harris scale normally playable from 1/2 step above a V chord’s root (oh...there was one exception in the mentioned triads: a note from the V chord’s scale itself).

So, hopefully, Zerozero if you sax playing days led you to be able to comfortably visualize and improv in a RH keyscale different than the key(s) of your chordal comps, then the “how to use” quandry can be replaced with freedom to plunk down on and move among any sagaciously-spaced notes from the non-conforming scale (no need to memorize non-conforming triads if you're seeing the non-conforming scale printed on your forehead).

Re: Upper structure triads and extensions life or death struggle [Re: ZeroZero] #2868241
07/11/19 05:53 AM
07/11/19 05:53 AM
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Posts: 385
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ZeroZero Offline OP
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I like the idea of sagaciously placed notes.

Yesterday I took a ii V I and applied every triad from every chromatic tone that there was, major and minor 24 in all, listening to its sonarity. I focussed on the list above, major triads built on 9,#4, #5 and 13.

I began to see connections that I have not isolated before. I already use a lot of cvhromatics, but as passing tones, fragments from the chromatic scale, connecting chords, this is another way. I notice that some of the chord tones are not resolving within the chord (e.g like a harmonic of the chord it lives in) but with the next chord - no bad thing - if controlled.

It's also helping lead me to other phrases, which are not triads, but still legit. I could make these before but now they come easier.

For those in the know I think these chords function like Edward De Bono's "Po" - lateral thinking chords.

Z

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