2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
74 members (3B43, Beemer, BachToTheFuture, Befetti, Almar, aesop, 1957, 36251, barbaram, anotherscott, 20 invisible), 629 guests, and 540 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4
Re: N1X vs Garritan CFX vs Pianoteq
Frédéric L #2849626 05/18/19 12:03 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,153
G
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,153
Originally Posted by Frédéric L

I suppose the “softer/harder side” is not the the right expression : there is only a single point of impact.

However, the harder the note is hit, the deeper the hammer is striked which makes the hammer harder.


Yes, but should not that be accounted for in the sampling? It's a major component of timbre. No modern DPs use a p sample and simply increase the volume to make it an f strike (looking at you, Kurzweil CUP2).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
(ad)
Sweetwater Gifts That Rock
Re: N1X vs Garritan CFX vs Pianoteq
Gombessa #2849630 05/18/19 12:11 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,946
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,946
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Yes, but should not that be accounted for in the sampling? It's a major component of timbre. No modern DPs use a p sample and simply increase the volume to make it an f strike (looking at you, Kurzweil CUP2).


It explains why we need multiple samples. If layers are not blended, we will need multiple of them to avoid to near velocity levels to sound too different. Some VST (EWQL Bechstein for example) seem to behave badly about it.

I suppose sampled DP to use nowadays a limited set of samples and blend them to avoid such gaps. (My DP is 12years old and have no blending of its 3 levels... and the difference between levels is important).


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: N1X vs Garritan CFX vs Pianoteq
Frédéric L #2849634 05/18/19 12:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,153
G
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,153
Originally Posted by Frédéric L

I suppose sampled DP to use nowadays a limited set of samples and blend them to avoid such gaps. (My DP is 12years old and have no blending of its 3 levels... and the difference between levels is important).


I'm sure modern DPs will variably blend samples (and they can get away with fewer velocity layers this way). I've never looked into whether sampled VSTs do, especially the ones with 20-100+ layers. Btw, the old CUP2 also had only 3 levels, non-blended. And the timbre change is startlingly obvious, even to non-audiophiles. It's good to be past that time in the technology curve.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: N1X vs Garritan CFX vs Pianoteq
CyberGene #2850143 05/19/19 07:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,294
D
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,294
I finally listened to all the audio files with my headphones on.

A few phrases and the chords at the end sound better with the Garritan CFX, but the overall the piece sounds better with the N1X. There just seems to be more expression and feeling that comes through in the playing. The Garritan feels more distant and like a recording. The N1X feels like I'm sitting right there at the bench with you and I can see your arms and hands sinking into the keys to create the dynamic expressions. I feel like I connect more with you emotionally while listening to the N1X.

N1X all the way.
Garritan will suffice if you don't have an N1X.
Pianoteq...neither of the sounds appeal to me.

God Bless,
David


Yamaha AdvantGrand N1X
Duane Shinn - 52 Week Crash Course - Completed
Duane Shinn - Praise and Gospel Course - In Progress
Greg Howlett - Inspirational Improvisation - In Progress
Re: N1X vs Garritan CFX vs Pianoteq
CyberGene #2866920 07/07/19 08:35 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,430
6000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,430
Somebody linked to this thread from another thread and so I listened again to my performances, long after I’ve forgotten them. Well, the Garritan CFX recording is simply the best sounding piano. For some reason just listening to the N1X (since I have no fresh memory on how I felt when playing each piano) makes it sound a tiny bit Pianoteq-ish in the sustain. It’s of course closer to Garritan rather than Pianoteq but I can’t close my ears and just reject what I hear smile However when I count in the playability, the N1X is incomparable. Which is also why people sometimes prefer Pianoteq compared to other software pianos although they admit the recorded sound isn’t perfect.

Last edited by CyberGene; 07/07/19 08:37 AM.

My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: N1X vs Garritan CFX vs Pianoteq
CyberGene #2866941 07/07/19 09:20 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,246
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,246
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Somebody linked to this thread from another thread and so I listened again to my performances, long after I’ve forgotten them. Well, the Garritan CFX recording is simply the best sounding piano. For some reason just listening to the N1X (since I have no fresh memory on how I felt when playing each piano) makes it sound a tiny bit Pianoteq-ish in the sustain. It’s of course closer to Garritan rather than Pianoteq but I can’t close my ears and just reject what I hear smile However when I count in the playability, the N1X is incomparable. Which is also why people sometimes prefer Pianoteq compared to other software pianos although they admit the recorded sound isn’t perfect.


Twas me, I remembered your post---liked it a lot.

Really highlighted where Pianoteq is weak i.e., in legato, whereas so many Pianoteq performances are fast and cover up the metallic twang.

However, it's worth noting that some people (mainly Phil) make very nice recordings with Pianoteq that seem flattering in comparison to others (maybe with better setup):



Kind regards,

Doug.

Last edited by Doug M.; 07/07/19 09:21 AM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: N1X vs Garritan CFX vs Pianoteq
CyberGene #2866944 07/07/19 09:25 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 506
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 506
I think if you were to re-record the N1X using the same amount of reverb as the Garritan had we would struggle to hear much if any difference. It isn't, in my opinion, a fair comparison. But, the reverb in the N1X may not sound as well as the Garritan's reverb which can affect the sound too. Consider re-recording the Garritan with less reverb to match the default N1X of 5 instead?

Reverb really does trick the ear into hearing different things to different people. I used reverb extensively in my guitar playing to very good results, without it sounding like it had reverb at all. It impacts the midrange more than we think, in a good way.


Nord Grand, Kawai MP11 (v1), iMac 2017, Yamaha HS8's, Sennheiser 650, Focusrite 2i4, Pianoteq 6.4.0, Steinway Model A, Mason and Hamlin Model AA, Piano Marvel: 3C
Re: N1X vs Garritan CFX vs Pianoteq
CyberGene #2866945 07/07/19 09:28 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,430
6000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,430
^ Very good point about the reverb! Thanks. I’ll do another comparison when I have time and will try to also anonymize it this time wink


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: N1X vs Garritan CFX vs Pianoteq
CyberGene #2866951 07/07/19 09:37 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 127
P
pmh Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 127
Hi Guys,
By all means go for more comparisons. I think Phill Best might be doing this as well if he has the time. But in my heart of hearts I have a feeling that it probably won’t definitively resolve the current differences in sound perception. On the other hand it’s good fun and provides welcome relief from the loneliness of practicing😀

Paul h


Kemble Compact Acoustic Piano, Yamaha CVP 709 Polished White, Kawai MP11se, Pianoteq Standard, Galaxy Vintage D, Garritan CFX.
Re: N1X vs Garritan CFX vs Pianoteq
HwyStar #2866955 07/07/19 09:49 AM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,153
G
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,153
Originally Posted by HwyStar
I think if you were to re-record the N1X using the same amount of reverb as the Garritan had we would struggle to hear much if any difference. It isn't, in my opinion, a fair comparison.


just in case you weren't aware, most people don't run CFX with any revert on at all. It's all in the ambient mic setup which provides the absolutely natural reverb of the Abbey Road studios where the CFX recorded. This point has little to do with CFX or pianoteq at all, and more about the insufficiency of artificially generated reverb, IMHO. It does, however, make it such that CFX may not suitable or preferable for some people who really like or need a more dry piano sound.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: N1X vs Garritan CFX vs Pianoteq
CyberGene #2866962 07/07/19 10:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,475
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,475
What I hear clearly is that the N1X uses just the usual sample-based digital piano engines, so you have some nice attacks but you have looping for sustained notes... and it's just in the sustained long notes (like the last chords in that piece) that you hear all the limits of this old technology (that they stubbornly continue to use in today digital pianos because it can work well on very cheap little single-boards that maybe cost less than 50$).

When you play a sustained chord on an actual digital piano sample-based, after a while you feel the digital nature of the sound because the looped parts. When you play a sustained chord on a high-quality piano VST (and even more on an real acoustic), you hear the unlooped notes intertwine beautifully, creating a complex, detailed and breathing, live, harp sound.

Pianoteq should not suffer from this problem, because it generates the sound algorithmically, yet it still sounds too digital to me.

I don't know how much is good the Garritan CFX playability, but to me, as a listener, its natural, unlooped sound is on another level when compared to the N1X and Pianoteq too.

Anyway, as I expected, the attack part of the notes played by the N1X to me is a little better than the attack generated by the Pianoteq engine which sometimes I feel a little strange.

And the quality of the reverb in the Garritan is excellent too.

Re: N1X vs Garritan CFX vs Pianoteq
CyberGene #2866972 07/07/19 10:29 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 377
J
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 377
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Well, the Garritan CFX recording is simply the best sounding piano.... However when I count in the playability, the N1X is incomparable.


Hi Cybergene, could you expound on this? I have a Yamaha P-515 (and am looking at the N1X) and am thinking of purchasing Garritan CFX Full. After listening to the samples again I now prefer the Garritan CFX, but is the playability considerably worse with it? Which sound do you normally use for your N1X?


Yamaha N1X, P-515.
Genelec 8331 monitors and 7350 sub.
VI’s: Garritan CFX, VSL Bösendorfer Upright, and VSL Blüthner 1895. Pianoteq.
Re: N1X vs Garritan CFX vs Pianoteq
CyberGene #2866977 07/07/19 10:43 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,430
6000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,430
Playability of the N1X’s native sound is the best. However CFX isn’t much worse. It’s only the slight subtleties of pedaling, repedaling and half-pedaling that (despite being implemented great for a sampled VST) are still lagging behind. But the timbral realism makes up for it to a degree.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
100,000!
---------------------
NEW! Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Do you normally ask dealer to tune piano?
by tony3304 - 01/18/21 07:25 AM
iPad pro (2020) MIDI Output not consistent
by Almar - 01/18/21 05:33 AM
used Kawai RX-1 or new Kawai GL-30?
by Guido, Roma - Italy - 01/18/21 05:23 AM
Roland F701 vs FP-90X (?)
by Mulberg - 01/18/21 02:17 AM
Garritan CFX, Sustain Release Samples ???
by DigitalMusicProduc - 01/17/21 11:18 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics204,352
Posts3,048,320
Members100,102
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4