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Is this cheating? #2864542
06/30/19 10:54 PM
06/30/19 10:54 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 662
Radio.Octave Offline OP
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Radio.Octave  Offline OP
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On some occasions, I can record an entire song without making any mistakes, but not always. I used to just start over, and try not to to flub up again, but once I got a digital recorder, I started editing the wav file on my PC. Now if I screw up, I'll just keep recording and do another "take". When I'm all done, I'll edit out the errors. Even with no mess ups, I still have page turns recorded, so I'll always edit those out, too.

It feels a little like cheating, but I suppose when records are recorded, they do the same thing. Just curious what everyone else does?


Kawai RX-6 BLAK
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Re: Is this cheating? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2864589
07/01/19 04:31 AM
07/01/19 04:31 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 287
Tallahassee, FL
Chopin Acolyte Offline
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Chopin Acolyte  Offline
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Posts: 287
Tallahassee, FL
Originally Posted by Radio.Octave
On some occasions, I can record an entire song without making any mistakes, but not always. I used to just start over, and try not to to flub up again, but once I got a digital recorder, I started editing the wav file on my PC. Now if I screw up, I'll just keep recording and do another "take". When I'm all done, I'll edit out the errors. Even with no mess ups, I still have page turns recorded, so I'll always edit those out, too.

It feels a little like cheating, but I suppose when records are recorded, they do the same thing. Just curious what everyone else does?


How exactly do you modify wav file so that you edit out mistakes and page turns? shocked

Anyway, when I intend to record a piece, I just hit the record button and play. I record several attempts and then cut the best one (phrasing, fewest mistakes etc.), that way I don't have much editing to do, just cut out the part I like. If I practice long enough (and the piece isn't terribly high above my skill level), I play it with few missed keys the first time...

If page turns are problematic for you, you can always memorize a few measures before and after the page break and that way you can move the page turn around to the point where there isn't much of left (or right) hand so you can turn seamlessly.

Re: Is this cheating? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2864738
07/01/19 12:09 PM
07/01/19 12:09 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 655
Toronto, Canada
T
thepianoplayer416 Offline
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T

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Posts: 655
Toronto, Canada
I live in an apartment building. The room where the keyboard there is a lot of traffic during the day. And my keyboard isn't the top of the line although it has 88 keys. When I'm recording, I'd do retakes as long as 1 of the takes sounds the way I want. Combining bits of audio from different soundtracks would be over the line. If a piece is 2m long and I get 2m of continuous playing without mistakes I'd consider this to be acceptable even if it is my 3rd retake.

The room where my keyboard is sitting I get a lot of traffic noise during the day. I'd use the record button on my keyboard when I'm playing and use a recording device to capture the playback late in the day when there is no traffic. A lot of newer keyboards you can just plug in a USB stick and transfer a recording as a .wav file so you don't have the problem of recording noise in the room. When you have an acoustic piano the USB stick option is out.

Using a noise filter to clean up a soundtrack is common and considered acceptable as adjusting the treble or bass of a recording. You're not changing the way you play the piece. Even adjusting the equalizer setting with a sound software is like moving 1 or more microphone(s) around the room to get the best sound.

Re: Is this cheating? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2864768
07/01/19 01:20 PM
07/01/19 01:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,956
Dublin
johnstaf Online crying
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Dublin
The overwhelming majority of commercial classical recordings are made by splicing together the best parts of takes. Even some well known "live" recordings.

Cheating would be something like editing a recording when it is prohibited, as in the case of an audition or competition application.

Re: Is this cheating? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2864792
07/01/19 02:23 PM
07/01/19 02:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 687
Sweden
Animisha Offline
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Animisha  Offline
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Sweden
When I used Garageband to record my pieces, I was sometimes badly tempted to edit single notes - for instance one that I had played just a bit too loud, or one that was not quite in sync with the other notes. But I resisted the temptation, because yes, it would feel like cheating. However, if I would be a studio pianist I would not doubt to make such edits. Why not. My job would be to create the most beautiful recording of that piece, and that is what I would deliver.


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
*
... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
Re: Is this cheating? [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2865000
07/02/19 02:15 AM
07/02/19 02:15 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 662
Radio.Octave Offline OP
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Radio.Octave  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by Radio.Octave
On some occasions, I can record an entire song without making any mistakes, but not always. I used to just start over, and try not to to flub up again, but once I got a digital recorder, I started editing the wav file on my PC. Now if I screw up, I'll just keep recording and do another "take". When I'm all done, I'll edit out the errors. Even with no mess ups, I still have page turns recorded, so I'll always edit those out, too.

It feels a little like cheating, but I suppose when records are recorded, they do the same thing. Just curious what everyone else does?


How exactly do you modify wav file so that you edit out mistakes and page turns? shocked

Anyway, when I intend to record a piece, I just hit the record button and play. I record several attempts and then cut the best one (phrasing, fewest mistakes etc.), that way I don't have much editing to do, just cut out the part I like. If I practice long enough (and the piece isn't terribly high above my skill level), I play it with few missed keys the first time...

If page turns are problematic for you, you can always memorize a few measures before and after the page break and that way you can move the page turn around to the point where there isn't much of left (or right) hand so you can turn seamlessly.


I typically start playing the piece, and then if I make a mistake, I'll stop playing and repeat that section (while still recording). If I'm lucky, maybe I won't make any errors, but it's bound to happen sometimes. When I'm all done, I'll import the WAV into Audacity and cut out all the bad sections. I also cut out the page turns. Even if I memorize the notes, the sound of the page being turned is recorded, so I usually remove that.


Kawai RX-6 BLAK
Re: Is this cheating? [Re: johnstaf] #2865001
07/02/19 02:19 AM
07/02/19 02:19 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 662
Radio.Octave Offline OP
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Radio.Octave  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
The overwhelming majority of commercial classical recordings are made by splicing together the best parts of takes. Even some well known "live" recordings.

Cheating would be something like editing a recording when it is prohibited, as in the case of an audition or competition application.


Thanks. This is pretty much what I was wondering. I'm just recording my music for personal use, and sometimes I'll make CDs for friends and family. I figure no one wants to hear a bunch of flubs in the finished recording. Of course, if I were just recording myself to analyze my playing, then that would be another story. Every note is played by me, it's just like you said—a splicing of all the best takes.


Kawai RX-6 BLAK
Re: Is this cheating? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2865261
07/02/19 06:19 PM
07/02/19 06:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,601
Pennsylvania
D
dmd Offline
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D

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,601
Pennsylvania
Originally Posted by Radio.Octave
On some occasions, I can record an entire song without making any mistakes, but not always. I used to just start over, and try not to to flub up again, but once I got a digital recorder, I started editing the wav file on my PC. Now if I screw up, I'll just keep recording and do another "take". When I'm all done, I'll edit out the errors. Even with no mess ups, I still have page turns recorded, so I'll always edit those out, too.

It feels a little like cheating, but I suppose when records are recorded, they do the same thing. Just curious what everyone else does?


It is only cheating/lying if you consciously represent it as a single-take recording to others ….. because you know it is not.

Worst case scenario ….. Family and friends ask you to "Play something for us" …. and you cannot because you have not worked on it long enough to get a recording in a single take.

Best case scenario … No-one asks …. and you "get away with it".


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Is this cheating? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2865319
07/02/19 09:17 PM
07/02/19 09:17 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,811
The Heart of Screenland
K
KurtZ Offline
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KurtZ  Offline
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K

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,811
The Heart of Screenland
THIS is cheating:

The great piano scam


**********************************************************************************************************
Co-owner (by marriage) and part time customer service rep at an electronic musical equipment repair shop.
Re: Is this cheating? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2865435
07/03/19 08:27 AM
07/03/19 08:27 AM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 47
J
joggerjazz Offline
Full Member
joggerjazz  Offline
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J

Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 47
My thoughts are I personnally wouldn't be happy with editing.
I bought a CD from someone I know that recorded a jazz/classical trio piece that had tricky time changes etc.
Listened to an excerpt and it sounded good and bought it. I later talked to him and found out they all used click track and many overdubs and editing were used. Had I known this I wouldn't of bought it.
Yes, it's a good clean recording. But I'd rather listen to an organic performance without a crutch.

Re: Is this cheating? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2865516
07/03/19 11:38 AM
07/03/19 11:38 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 583
Virginia, USA
K
Kbeaumont Offline
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Kbeaumont  Offline
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K

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 583
Virginia, USA
I do it all the time mostly with vocals. As for piano I usually record midi and if I need to adjust a note here and there either frequency, timing or level its easy enough. Yes I could do a bunch of whole unedited versions but I have better things to do with my time. Its not cheating, cheating would be grabbing a midi file off the internet edit it and call it my own. I play live gigs often enough I don't need to prove I can play.

Last edited by Kbeaumont; 07/03/19 11:40 AM.

A long long time ago, I can still remember
How that music used to make me smile....
Re: Is this cheating? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2866105
07/04/19 08:17 PM
07/04/19 08:17 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 29
Los Angeles
L
Leon T Offline
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Leon T  Offline
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L

Joined: May 2019
Posts: 29
Los Angeles
Originally Posted by Radio.Octave
On some occasions, I can record an entire song without making any mistakes, but not always. I used to just start over, and try not to to flub up again, but once I got a digital recorder, I started editing the wav file on my PC. Now if I screw up, I'll just keep recording and do another "take". When I'm all done, I'll edit out the errors. Even with no mess ups, I still have page turns recorded, so I'll always edit those out, too.

It feels a little like cheating, but I suppose when records are recorded, they do the same thing. Just curious what everyone else does?


Almost all albums are recorded this way. It used to be a no no in the the classical world, but I've been on countless classical sessions where they do exactly this. Even most opera sessions are recorded this way as well. That's not cheating at all. You want to produce the best performance possible. If live performance is your thing, then you might want to get good at giving a solid performance, but for recording purposes anything goes. It's called comping. They record tons of takes and come up with one perfect or best performance. This is different from auto tuning/pitch shifting a performance in a sense that the performer is actually performing those additional takes.



Re: Is this cheating? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2867291
07/08/19 08:23 AM
07/08/19 08:23 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 379
Germany
Pianist685 Offline
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Pianist685  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 379
Germany
Originally Posted by Leon T
Almost all albums are recorded this way. It used to be a no no in the the classical world, but I've been on countless classical sessions where they do exactly this.
That is some information I was waiting for. I was wondering how those professional pianists are able to produce such perfect CDs.

Originally Posted by Radio.Octave
I typically start playing the piece, and then if I make a mistake, I'll stop playing and repeat that section (while still recording). If I'm lucky, maybe I won't make any errors, but it's bound to happen sometimes. When I'm all done, I'll import the WAV into Audacity and cut out all the bad sections. I also cut out the page turns. Even if I memorize the notes, the sound of the page being turned is recorded, so I usually remove that.
You must be a very clever Audacity user. When I try to cut out anything or splice two parts together I usually get a click there which is quite annoying - anyone would hear the edit.


My recordings on the IMSLP: https://imslp.org/wiki/User:C._Stephan
Re: Is this cheating? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2869728
07/16/19 05:52 AM
07/16/19 05:52 AM
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 5
The Netherlands
exoticpianoman Offline
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The Netherlands
Interesting Thread!
But just to be sure, you guys record your actual piano sound?
Not too far in the future I'm going to start uploading videos of me playing the piano but the way I'll record it is via MIDI.
So I'm recording my hands, use a VST Plugin to make my piano playing sound like for example a Yamaha CFX and then the editing ia easier as you don't record environmental noise.

Re: Is this cheating? [Re: Leon T] #2870588
07/19/19 09:48 AM
07/19/19 09:48 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 662
Radio.Octave Offline OP
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Radio.Octave  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Leon T
Originally Posted by Radio.Octave
On some occasions, I can record an entire song without making any mistakes, but not always. I used to just start over, and try not to to flub up again, but once I got a digital recorder, I started editing the wav file on my PC. Now if I screw up, I'll just keep recording and do another "take". When I'm all done, I'll edit out the errors. Even with no mess ups, I still have page turns recorded, so I'll always edit those out, too.

It feels a little like cheating, but I suppose when records are recorded, they do the same thing. Just curious what everyone else does?


Almost all albums are recorded this way. It used to be a no no in the the classical world, but I've been on countless classical sessions where they do exactly this. Even most opera sessions are recorded this way as well. That's not cheating at all. You want to produce the best performance possible. If live performance is your thing, then you might want to get good at giving a solid performance, but for recording purposes anything goes. It's called comping. They record tons of takes and come up with one perfect or best performance. This is different from auto tuning/pitch shifting a performance in a sense that the performer is actually performing those additional takes.




Thanks, that makes me feel better =) That's kind of my way of thinking, too. No one wants to listen to a recording of me making a oopsies (unless it's myself or a piano teacher trying to critique my playing).


Kawai RX-6 BLAK
Re: Is this cheating? [Re: Pianist685] #2870589
07/19/19 09:53 AM
07/19/19 09:53 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 662
Radio.Octave Offline OP
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Radio.Octave  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Pianist685
Originally Posted by Leon T
Almost all albums are recorded this way. It used to be a no no in the the classical world, but I've been on countless classical sessions where they do exactly this.
That is some information I was waiting for. I was wondering how those professional pianists are able to produce such perfect CDs.

Originally Posted by Radio.Octave
I typically start playing the piece, and then if I make a mistake, I'll stop playing and repeat that section (while still recording). If I'm lucky, maybe I won't make any errors, but it's bound to happen sometimes. When I'm all done, I'll import the WAV into Audacity and cut out all the bad sections. I also cut out the page turns. Even if I memorize the notes, the sound of the page being turned is recorded, so I usually remove that.
You must be a very clever Audacity user. When I try to cut out anything or splice two parts together I usually get a click there which is quite annoying - anyone would hear the edit.




I had that problem for a while and was stumped as to why it was happening. The problem is, when you select a section of the waveform, the beginning and end might not be where it crosses zero dB. Here's the solution, and I think you're gonna love this! After you highlight the portion of the wav you want, press Z on the keyboard, and then delete that section. My understanding is, this adjusts the highlighted portion to zero crossings, so those little blips are gone. I occasionally run into problems, but this works great, and no more clicks =) The thing I find a little trick now is cutting it at just the right spot so it doesn't throw off the timing of the notes.

Last edited by Radio.Octave; 07/19/19 09:54 AM.

Kawai RX-6 BLAK
Re: Is this cheating? [Re: exoticpianoman] #2870590
07/19/19 09:56 AM
07/19/19 09:56 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 662
Radio.Octave Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
Radio.Octave  Offline OP
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Posts: 662
Originally Posted by exoticpianoman
Interesting Thread!
But just to be sure, you guys record your actual piano sound?
Not too far in the future I'm going to start uploading videos of me playing the piano but the way I'll record it is via MIDI.
So I'm recording my hands, use a VST Plugin to make my piano playing sound like for example a Yamaha CFX and then the editing ia easier as you don't record environmental noise.


I record my acoustic, but I think it'd be fine to use a midi device, too. Sometimes, my recordings pickup pedal noise, squeaks, thumps, environmental noises, etc. I don't mind it too much, but it someone wanted a really clean recording, I could see MIDI being a good choice.

I feel like as long as I'm the one playing the notes on the keys, be it a piano, keyboard, whatever, it's authentic.


Kawai RX-6 BLAK
Re: Is this cheating? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2872407
07/24/19 10:18 PM
07/24/19 10:18 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 29
Tokyo, Japan
Cade Offline
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Cade  Offline
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Posts: 29
Tokyo, Japan
I just think of it as two different genres, and I appreciate both for what they are.

There's live recording blemishes and all where the music feels really raw and alive. If it's a good musician, they can hold it together, but you can still feel that there's no safety net there, and they're pulling all of these moving parts into some structure by sheer force of will. It's that feeling of risk and spontaneity that makes it pop.

And then there's edited recordings that don't have that feeling of risk but are really polished and still really emotional, like they're crystallizing the emotion. In that way, I think of editing music for that in the same way I think of editing a novel. The creator is paring it down to just the right words/notes that best convey the emotional message.

My point is, each approach offers something different to a listener, and if you're going to do either one, you ought to play to its strengths. Live recording doesn't work if the player can't really hold it together, and an edited recording doesn't really work if you're not really putting thought into the edits as part of the creation itself.

As an aside, at's funny, I've gotten so attuned to the Audacity "click" when I splice, no matter how much I soften it, that now I hear it in professional recordings all over the place.

Re: Is this cheating? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2872440
07/25/19 12:20 AM
07/25/19 12:20 AM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 4,256
Florida
dogperson Offline

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Cade
Sorry I missed your posted Christmas improv at Christmas , but I just celebrated Christmas in July by listening. I’m sure your family really appreciated the recordings. 😊 thanks for sharing


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It’s ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Is this cheating? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2873408
07/28/19 08:12 AM
07/28/19 08:12 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 29
Tokyo, Japan
Cade Offline
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Tokyo, Japan
Thanks for listening.

They're interesting examples to the topic at hand. I practiced just enough to know the changes and melody in the days before recording, and basically on the recording day I just turned the video on and started playing from the morning, repeating it one time after another, until I got a track that was good enough for a release and still within the limits of my sanity to keep going... somewhere around late afternoon! They took like literally 40 or 50 takes apiece, I think in one case over 60.

Granted the first half of the day was basically learning the inside of pieces & then practicing it, so not really "takes". But it still took a lot of work for what seem like really short and simple pieces.

I can't tell you how much respect I have for jazz masters that kick out good takes after going through those marathons. And they still have lots of little foibles, but now I feel like those are the battle scars haha. I felt happy I just survived through the whole piece and got something like a solo in at all. And after going through so much, I wasn't about to edit or cut those takes. They were hard won!!

Last edited by Cade; 07/28/19 08:14 AM.
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