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Re: Trying to figure out upright options in the 2-3k range - NYC
Snicklefritz #2861406 06/21/19 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Snicklefritz
For me as well I'm finding that the action is going to be what likely seals the deal.



Sadly, I think I liked the Roland HP605 action best...

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Re: Trying to figure out upright options in the 2-3k range - NYC
nutellaphant #2861795 06/22/19 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by nutellaphant
Originally Posted by Snicklefritz
For me as well I'm finding that the action is going to be what likely seals the deal.



Sadly, I think I liked the Roland HP605 action best...


We went through the same process a couple of years ago -- going back and forth beween Yamaha and Roland. This is obviously a matter of personal taste, but Roland's PHA50 action did it for us. We ended up buying an LX-17. I see this is now the action on the HP605 that you're looking at. Not sure what agreements do Roland dealers have with the manufacturer as far as out-of-state sales. But now that you know this is the piano and action you like, could you find a way to order online or from a shop in another state? One might be able to give you a good deal including shipping right to your door.

Last edited by Chris Pringle; 06/22/19 05:09 PM.
Re: Trying to figure out upright options in the 2-3k range - NYC
Chris Pringle #2862043 06/23/19 03:07 PM
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I'm working through my alternatives! Right now I'm trying to negotiate with a seller in NJ. Not easy for me to get there at all (and they're trying to get me to come in before they'll agree to a price because they know I'm "close"), but hoping they'll go to ~2.8k for a new one (they asked $3.9k...not gonna happen.) The HP601 and DP603 seem to have the same action, though, and are both way more affordable to me so if this one won't budge I'll consider a different model. I'm also hoping to check out a different dealer in CT who said they have a bunch of Roland & Kawai models in stock, so I can finally try everything I'm considering in one place vs every few days. I wouldn't be upset if I had to go with the Kawai CA58 after all this, though. It's still a formidable option. Also, the Kawai dealer nearby will be lowering the CN37 price when the CN39 comes out....

Re: Trying to figure out upright options in the 2-3k range - NYC
nutellaphant #2862314 06/24/19 10:50 AM
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I can potentially do an HP605 floor model from a smaller shop outside the city for ~$2500. They offered $2600 after we negotiated to $2800 on a new one and they realized they have no more new ones. I'd probably offer back $2300 given that it's a floor unit - is it even worth it, though? I imagine they have much less foot traffic than Sam Ash in Midtown, but I'd need to procure a car and drive all the way out there to check it out first.

Re: Trying to figure out upright options in the 2-3k range - NYC
nutellaphant #2862528 06/24/19 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by nutellaphant
I can potentially do an HP605 floor model from a smaller shop outside the city for ~$2500. They offered $2600 after we negotiated to $2800 on a new one and they realized they have no more new ones. I'd probably offer back $2300 given that it's a floor unit - is it even worth it, though? I imagine they have much less foot traffic than Sam Ash in Midtown, but I'd need to procure a car and drive all the way out there to check it out first.


When we got our LX17 a couple of years ago, we specifically requested the floor model that had been fully tested. We were taking the piano across the border to our home in Mexico. Although tempting, we just couldn't afford taking the risk on a brand new piano (still in its box) that could have some issue and be forced to drive it 16 hours back to Phoenix for warranty repair. We are very happy with our Roland LX17 almost two years later. I would simply ask the usual questions to make sure the piano is in pristine shape and that they will pack it carefully for shipping.

Re: Trying to figure out upright options in the 2-3k range - NYC
nutellaphant #2862581 06/25/19 04:56 AM
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A trip from Phoenix to Mexico can be rough on a piano; did the LX-17 need a tuning when it arrived at Mexico?

Re: Trying to figure out upright options in the 2-3k range - NYC
Chris Pringle #2862691 06/25/19 03:36 PM
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There's definitely some benefit to getting the floor model since it's been tested extensively, as long as it hasn't been tested to the point of feeling like a "used" piano rather than a new one... I'll be picking it up most likely anyway as I don't want to pay the shipping costs (unless they can fold it in or give me a good deal - I live in a walk-up on a high floor, though, so estimates I've been getting are approaching $200.)

Re: Trying to figure out upright options in the 2-3k range - NYC
Pete14 #2862762 06/25/19 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
A trip from Phoenix to Mexico can be rough on a piano; did the LX-17 need a tuning when it arrived at Mexico?


We were quite concerned when took it out of the box, but amazingly, it sounded great when we plugged it in. No tuning needed. Can you believe it? LOL!

Re: Trying to figure out upright options in the 2-3k range - NYC
nutellaphant #2864476 06/30/19 06:47 PM
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Can anyone give advice on negotiating? I'm thinking about going for a new CA58 instead of a floor model HP605 (though it's not totally off the table...)

I tried to counter an offer of $2,795 (plus 150 shipping with assembly included, no tax) with $2500 shipping included. I was nearly laughed at. They countered with $2,695 plus shipping. I told them I wanted to think about it and plan to call back. I only know from the prices paid spreadsheet that it's potentially possible to get Sam Ash to do $2500 online.... so far they've only gone to $2799 though. I'm currently in touch with 2 other vendors and will be contacting a 3rd. The other issue I'm battling against is that NYC tax + shipping to the walk-up really jacks up the price so any concessions I can get on those are valuable. Are there any tips I can use to try and get a successful deal?

Re: Trying to figure out upright options in the 2-3k range - NYC
nutellaphant #2864492 06/30/19 07:27 PM
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I take it that carrying a piano up to the house/apartment from street level brings extra cost? Well if you buy a piano in-a-box it's not so difficult. The box is relatively compact. The piano only becomes bulky after assembly.

But if you're buying an already assembled piano, that can be a bear.

As for getting the best price ... You've already seen member "KL NY" make the purchase for $2500. That should be your high target.

You've rejected $2800 + $150 + tax. And you've walked away from $2700 + $150 + tax. I think you made the right moves.

You told them you'd think about it. The only thing I would have done differently is to omit the "think about it" and simply said "thank you, but sorry".

On the next encounter I'd make a point of visiting another shop, expressing interest in the piano, getting the salesman's name and email, and leaving your name and phone number.

Follow-up later or next day with an email to that salesman. Include your name, phone, and email address. Remind the salesman of your visit, and ask a question.
The question you ask is not relevant. The only point of the email is to show interest, and to ensure that the seller has your contact information.

If you get an answer to your question just reply with an indication that you're ready to buy.
Name your price. Include shipping, assembly, and tax, and make it clear that this is the on-the-street total. One number and only one number.
Mention that you'd like to revisit the shop on a particular date. Name that date explicitly.

You now have your baited hook in the water. You're no longer just another guy, like many others, just looking at pianos.
You're ready to buy. You'll be available on a specific date. So see what happens.

The seller will not say no to your offer. He wants you back in the store. He wants to get his mitts on you. (And you want to get your mitts on him.)
Remind him of your emailed offer. When he hems and haws ... you can sweeten the deal by offering him cash (or check). He'll save the 2.5% credit card holdback.
But don't make this (or any) concession until he makes a counter-statement.

Always remember: The seller wants your money more than you want his piano.

Best of luck.

Re: Trying to figure out upright options in the 2-3k range - NYC
MacMacMac #2864526 06/30/19 09:20 PM
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I don't have other shops to go to really - I've reached out now to every Kawai dealer in a reasonable distance (only 1 of which I can actually visit again without a car.) I've made it pretty clear to a few of them that I'm serious about buying, so there are 3 shops with my contact info and an ongoing email chain where I've been trying to figure out what "delivery" really includes. Tax is 8.875% here but if I get it shipped from another state I can potentially avoid that (only if it's being delivered....) I have 2 dealers in 2 neighboring states, 1 dealer in NYC. Those are my 3 options aside from buying online (which I am still considering, the other NY buyer also bought online though assembly was not included.) Do I just email them all with the same take it or leave it, I will buy this right now if you take it offer and see who bites??

Yes from street level to my apartment is becoming the issue. If it's in a box, that doesn't seem difficult to me, but one shop told me it would be $50 per flight of stairs - and the piano would be in a box until they assemble it in my apartment! That's $200 just for my stairs on top of a $175 delivery fee. I might as well carry it myself with a friend or hire my own moving company!

Last edited by nutellaphant; 06/30/19 09:22 PM.
Re: Trying to figure out upright options in the 2-3k range - NYC
nutellaphant #2864537 06/30/19 09:46 PM
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I see your dilemma more clearly now.


If you cannot do a face-to-face with other dealers then I'm not sure what to say. I only negotiate face to face.

But, you said it yourself: "Do I just email them all with the same take it or leave it, I will buy this right now if you take it offer and see who bites?"
What the heck. It's worth a try. And there's nothing to lose.

Re: Trying to figure out upright options in the 2-3k range - NYC
MacMacMac #2864543 06/30/19 09:55 PM
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I thought I'd have better luck negotiating face to face today with my offer after building up a rapport and making it clear I would do a same day purchase for that price. Oh well! (Of course, he has now emailed me to say he misquoted the delivery and that stairs aren't included in the price...jeez.) There is the 1 other shop I can visit, if I have a car, as I've only emailed them and not spoken to someone face to face. I'm also open to revisiting the one in the city to make my offer instead of doing so online, as I've so far had an experience of just leaving my name and contact info and asking them a question about the CN series...

Re: Trying to figure out upright options in the 2-3k range - NYC
nutellaphant #2864544 06/30/19 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by nutellaphant


Yes from street level to my apartment is becoming the issue. If it's in a box, that doesn't seem difficult to me, but one shop told me it would be $50 per flight of stairs - and the piano would be in a box until they assemble it in my apartment! That's $200 just for my stairs on top of a $175 delivery fee. I might as well carry it myself with a friend or hire my own moving company!


Pay $200 for delivery is too much IMO, not because it not worth it but that is added 10% to the price. This is a DP not Acoustic Piano. It comes in a box, it weight about 200 lbs, If they offer to ship free to your apt, you just need a few friends, take it out from the box, the only heavy piece is the "keyboard", maybe 100-120 lbs?, 2-3 guys can carry it slowly up the stairs. The rest is just the stand on bench, you can carry it up the stairs easily. To carry the whole box up the stairs maybe a challenge, some of the stairs in NYC apt are very tight.. Of course, you need to take all precautions.. don't hurt yourself. Yes I mean you and your friends, not the DP.

I never thought shopping for a DP was so hard when I started to look for a new DP. There is only 1 Kawai dealer in NY, and 1 Yamaha dealer. Luckily NYC has Sam Ash which has few model to try. Drive to NJ or CT are just inconvenient, even you go where, you may no able to negotiate to the price you willing to pay, that just what I hate this dealership thing. You dont know what price you get until you get to the store. How much time people wasted in dealing with this kind of thing? The Kawai dealer in NYC just lost my business because of this. When I visited, he didnt even bother to offer me the "online price" that listed in Kawai site. Even after an email follow up, the price still higher than the online price. I didnt even bother to counter the offer. Perhaps I might able to get the same low price I got somewhere, but why do I want to do that?

I hope you able to get the DP you like,

Re: Trying to figure out upright options in the 2-3k range - NYC
KL NY #2864547 06/30/19 10:05 PM
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I actually did the drive to CT today as I had brief access to a car! I had to do it to be able to try the Rolands and Kawais together in 1 room since Sam Ash only has the CA48 and HP605 at 34th right now.

I was really hoping I could make it work for the $2500 and was bummed it didn't happen. The dealer stuff is extra frustrating here when it takes a full hour+ to get to any one of them. The guy was really trying to make the sale too, asking me to put down a deposit etc... and gave me a whole spiel in the beginning about how they don't need the money and can do good prices. The price for the CA78 was "ok" at $3595, but I hated the touch screen.

Yeah the $200 is very absurd for delivery, but taxes in NYC on a $2500 piano are $205 anyway (if I'd bought it and drove it back from CT I could save another $50 or so on tax.) So if the option is between paying $150-200 in tax or $200 for delivery I supposed I'd pick the delivery! Not if EVERY flight is $50 though. Robbery.

My stairs are very wide and easy to navigate at least.

Last edited by nutellaphant; 06/30/19 10:05 PM.
Re: Trying to figure out upright options in the 2-3k range - NYC
KL NY #2864559 06/30/19 10:57 PM
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This highlights one of the most important points in working a deal ...
Originally Posted by KL NY
How much time people wasted in dealing with this kind of thing? The Kawai dealer in NYC just lost my business because of this. When I visited, he didnt even bother to offer me the "online price" that listed in Kawai site. Even after an email follow up, the price still higher than the online price. I didnt even bother to counter the offer. Perhaps I might able to get the same low price I got somewhere, but why do I want to do that?
How much time indeed!

In a negotiation you must make time work for you. Don't be in a hurry. He who is constrained by time loses!

The time need not be wasted at all. The time is to be used to work the deal.

I generally prefer to spend more time ... and less money.

Re: Trying to figure out upright options in the 2-3k range - NYC
MacMacMac #2864564 06/30/19 11:19 PM
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If anything, I don't mind taking my time with the negotiations and piano testing. Spending a few thousand dollars isn't a decision I want to make quickly! The time I mind here, though, is the hours I've spent in transit. At least 5+ at this point! I feel it would be a more enjoyable process if I could try these out more frequently.

Re: Trying to figure out upright options in the 2-3k range - NYC
MacMacMac #2864565 06/30/19 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
This highlights one of the most important points in working a deal ...
Originally Posted by KL NY
How much time people wasted in dealing with this kind of thing? The Kawai dealer in NYC just lost my business because of this. When I visited, he didnt even bother to offer me the "online price" that listed in Kawai site. Even after an email follow up, the price still higher than the online price. I didnt even bother to counter the offer. Perhaps I might able to get the same low price I got somewhere, but why do I want to do that?
How much time indeed!

In a negotiation you must make time work for you. Don't be in a hurry. He who is constrained by time loses!

The time need not be wasted at all. The time is to be used to work the deal.

I generally prefer to spend more time ... and less money.


Well, the issue is not we want to rush to make a deal , it is the issue with this type of negotiation is not necessary and bad to us. Why this industry has to work this way? A dealer need customer to come in the door before even disclose their price, yes sure we can do the way people suggest, drop the offer and contact and leave. But why people think this way of conduct business is good? The time is waste when I have to contact each dealer and find out their price and counter offer, many may not even deal with me because I email them instead of coming through the door. Time is waste when I have to drive many places just to find out the price. I should be able to do this on my computer and get it done in 10 minutes.

Re: Trying to figure out upright options in the 2-3k range - NYC
nutellaphant #2865562 07/03/19 11:48 AM
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I've negotiated the following so far:

Kawai CA58, new, Rosewood
$2939 including sales tax, free shipping into my apartment, no assembly (I offered $2400 plus tax, this was their counter - without tax it's $2700. I went back with $2550 plus tax.)

$2745, no tax involved, includes shipping to the ground floor of my building (I offered $2600 including shipping, this was their counter. I'd like to go back with $2695 shipping included.)

Roland HP605, floor model (NJ), black
$2700, no tax involved, includes shipping to my apartment (I offered $2400 including shipping, this was their counter. I'd like to go back with $2600 shipping included.)

The Roland is the best deal with this in mind, at the moment.
I'm in touch with one other dealer in NJ who has a CA58 floor model in black (or could get me a new one obviously.) Waiting to hear what their shipping costs are before I offer.

Re: Trying to figure out upright options in the 2-3k range - NYC
nutellaphant #2867348 07/08/19 10:46 AM
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Seemingly going to get a CA58 for $2350 + tax, free shipping, bench included!

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