Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Piano Town or Adventures?

Well, no ... I really think, you get me wrong in that point. I'm not the overcritical helicopter parent you hold me for.
But a teacher, who for instance does not care about note reading skills (she really never checks that, but takes the ability for granted) is at least worth a little concern, don`t you think?


If I were a teacher-nightmare, who really never gets satisfied, why am I not insisting a teacher change within the same school?

I could do that...theoretically, but I dont want to, for severel reasions. Most of all, I dont want to snub the current teacher.
I have never claimed, she is a no-hoper.



Of course, there is more than one way to skin a cat...but I do prefer the carefully one.
Is that bad?

I just don`t want to make poor compromises due to a lack of better alternatives. I mean, it is my own child I am talking about.
And I know what it means and feels like, to suffer from poor teaching. My parents did not care at all.
Maybe that was a good thing in your opinion, I myself think different about it.

Does the teacher get your daughter to read a piece of music she hasn't played before, or is she teaching by rote (i.e. she always plays first, and then asks your daughter to copy her)?

If the former, she is checking every time. (As I've already mentioned, my own teachers did that with me with every new piece). No need for formal sight-reading tests or other checks. I assume your daughter isn't doing any piano exams.


.

You don't have to.

You've already insisted - foisted - a book on the teacher that she has never used and likely never wanted to use, and (seemingly) also want the teacher to go faster than she's doing, thereby totally undermining her already. No teacher likes to be treated like that. Would you?

If I was that teacher, I'd be bristling, and coming close to firing your kid.......(Actually, I'd have told you straight that I can no longer teach your child because of your attitude).



Why do you assume that your own "alternative" is better? Because it's newer, and/or has gushing publicity behind it?

I - and all my peers - used an old children's beginner primer which taught slow and steady, the "old-fashioned" way (which is still the most popular beginner's primer used in my home country and many others) and we all had no trouble with reading skills (we all did ABRSM grade exams which included sight-reading, as well as aural skills, scales & arpeggios and pieces, and none of us ever failed: in fact, we generally achieved Merit or Distinction).

I'm reminded of the state educational problems we have had in the UK. New ideas of teaching (where children were encouraged to 'discover' things rather than being formally taught etc) were introduced in recent decades which had the effect of bringing literacy and numeracy rates right down. Many students entering university have had to attend remedial classes before starting their course in order to get their written - and even spoken - language skills up to scratch.

Needless to say, there have been more than one attempt to do a U-turn in recent years.......unlike this lady :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ-M0KEFm9I

Oh come on ... you would not! I am a very nice and sensible person, so why should you want to get rid of me? ( )

Seriously, I think you have a completely wrong idea of how I handle and communicate with my daughter's teacher.



That`s sooo NOT true.

I did not force her to switch to PA. We had a conversation in which I told her about the benefits, and she agreed to give it a try. (By the way: PA progresses much slower than the other books we used ).

She could also have refused and insisted on the previous books. I would have accepted that (believe it or not.)
But she did not refuse.

Now, how on earth could this situation be only my fault?

(Unless it is a mistake to be very convincing. )




She does both… but the problem (in the past) was: if my daughter was not able to read the needed notes, that was no reason for her to do something about it. She just played it for her, showed her the notes and moved on.
As long as my daughter mastered the pieces till next lesson, she was fine with it and did not question, how exactly she managed to do that.

Sorry, but in my opinion, this IS bad...or let`s just say: not very profound teaching.
Don`t you agree?




It is not only my alternative, it is an educational concept that has already convinced many teachers and educational institutions. For a good reason, I think.

I'm not saying that otherwise it's not possible to get good results (at the end). And I'm convinced that there are teachers out there, who can teach great, no matter which book they use. But that is not the case here...I became aware of shortcomings in the teaching process, before I even started questioning the method book.

I myself have learned to play piano at a high level without ever enjoying such well-thought-out books. To be exact, I did not use any method books at all. I have been playing classical pieces right from the start (after a few weeks of practising Beyer).

But that is not an argument for me, not to prefer the best possible way of teaching. In the contrary, although I loved it nevertheless, it would have been even more fun with something like PA.

I have said it previously ‘ your daughter has been taking lessons for less than one year and is young’. You should let her teacher teach and quit worrying about whether she is progressing fast enough.

Are you sure you didn't make her an offer she couldn't refuse ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeldwfOwuL8

I don't know of any teacher who would willingly switch to a different method of teaching and a book she'd never seen before without having studied it carefully and decided whether it was any good, just because of a conversation with the parent...........unless she felt pressured to do so.

Again - would you, if you were the teacher?



I've no idea how you were taught, but Austria has the biggest tradition of classical music in the world, stemming back to Mozart and Schubert, and I can't imagine that piano teachers there don't know how to teach properly.

I really don't know why you have such a big problem with allowing a teacher to teach without constant interference from yourself, and thinking that you know better how than the teacher about how and what to teach. I assume you're not a qualified teacher. Your daughter will almost certainly pick up vibes from you that you believe her teacher isn't up to scratch, no matter how well you think you're hiding it, and that will totally undermine her teacher in her eyes.

My apologies if you have already answered this somewhere before. A question:

Can you explain what the teaching ideas of your daughter's teacher are?

I have not taught music (officially) but I have taught. I did not usually explain my teaching ideas / pedagogy to my older students or parents of younger students. I'm not sure how much they grasped what I was doing. I'm curious how much teachers communicate their teaching ideas to parents, and am quite interested in what your daughter's teacher was able to convey.

Rofl.
Oh of course!
I always talk to people in that "Don Corleone"- manner.







So…
Either that does not speak for her as a (careful) teacher, or it speaks for me as a very reasonable person with conclusive arguments. I'm right?

But honestly, there is no pressure I could exert on her, even if I wanted to.

She works for the music school, not for me.
And there are many students on a waiting list who will move up if my daughter leaves.




Well, probably…no.
I was a little surprised myself that she agreed.

I think, anyway, it's only the pieces she chooses from it, not the whole method behind it..
But I do not expect her to reform her entire teaching concept overnight ... (I would not even dare to).

But it makes it easier for me to compensate for any deficiencies when working with the same material.

(Of course, "lack" was not the word I was using during our conversation!)



You cant imagine it, but I experienced it.
Not only me ... I could probably fill books with horror stories from students (friends of mine) who suffered from bad lessons.
My own longtime teacher had a competition with his brother, a teacher himself. Who brings out the more successful / talented students to make his mark?
Just weird... every time my friend, who happened to be his brother's student, was in class with me, she had to play for him so he could compare us.

But what was even worse:
He did not provide any solid basis for me, but got mad, when my finger technique started to lag behind my actual playing level.
I could play anything with effortless fluently but I did not rise or curve my fingers the way he would have liked me to.
He pushed and critized me in the same time... he threatened me with reprisals and I had no idea, what he actually wanted.
Playing infront of him became increasingly stressfull...the same at concerts. I had to perform well, because he used to announce me as his best student. A lot of pressure, which I would have liked to do without.

I once messed it up (caused to anxiety), got a total blackout during playing and did not know what to do...it was totally embarrassing (for me) and he didn`t help me at all. He just shrugged when I looked at him (desperatly).
So I had to get up, reach for my notes, run over to the right page (what felt like ages...), to finally being able to move on and finish the piece.
People came over to me afterwards to assure me how great I played (nevertheless), but that didnt help very much...I was unconsolable (almost broken).

From now on I was always a nervous wreck before the concerts...it ruined my performance-career for a long time.


Of course, that experiences are not a rule. But no exception either.




Unfortunately, I've lost my initial trust in her method a bit, that's right. But not without reason. I already described what bothers me the most.

How am I supposed to ignore that?

And why can`t you believe that it's real flaws that worry me?

I mean, it is a common fact that there are really good teachers and some that are rather bad ... I am not the first to make such a monstrous statement.


And if that's an argument for you: she definetly is not related to neither Mozart nor Schubert. (But Schubert I would clearly prefer).




No, I am not, I have only an artistic diploma.
But that doesn't mean I am not able to figure out what is best for my daughter.





I never talk bad about the teacher in front of my daughter. Truly never.
It's not that I do not like her.
I respect her as a person ... even as a teacher.
I'm just not completely satisfied with her way of teaching ...

There have been - and probably always will be - pushy, even aggressive teachers (not least in a country east of Europe which shall not be named, but has produced some of the world's greatest pianists), but if you were good enough to perform "anything with effortless fluency" when young, that hardly smacks of poor quality of teaching. That's not the same as manner of teaching.




I'm not clear about what flaws you're finding in the teacher. Your daughter can obviously read music well, and even loves to sight-read, as you've already said. (Would that my own students do the same, is what I hear many other teachers cry.......). So, unless it was actually you who taught her to read music, her teacher has been doing a good job.

Is it that the teacher doesn't correct her on every mistake she makes when playing her pieces, and goes on to something else instead? Well, none of my four teachers corrected me on every mistake I made, because they knew I knew they were mistakes, and will strive not to make the same ones again - and they moved me on.




I have a performance diploma (and have been performing regularly for many years), but I don't feel qualified to teach - not least because I don't really know what kids of specific ages are expected to be able to do at the keyboard, and I have no experience of teaching piano formally (though I do know a lot about kids' development as part of my job).

And if I have a child who wants to learn piano, I'd find a good teacher and let him/her get on with it with absolutely no interference from me. Apart from encouraging regular focused practising, of course.



You don't have to "talk bad" about her teacher for your daughter to pick up your opinion of her teacher.

Time and again, in my job, I see parents who have absolutely no idea what their kids pick up on, and wonder why they are moping, crying, disobedient, lashing out.......

pinkiepie, it is the teacher, not the method book, that teaches.

For example your daughter’s teacher’s handling of sight-reading, or reading more generally, will not change solely because the pieces played come from a different book than before. I’m not evaluating the teacher’s methods here one way or another, but since it’s something you seem to want to change, I want to point out that changing method books has nothing to do with it.

There’s a Faber blog about teaching from the PA books which shows there are a lot of playing and reading skills that the Fabers thought about in putting the books together. But those skills don’t get learned just by playing the pieces in the book. They get learned by having a teacher who is actively using the pieces to teach certain skills.

I suspect the same is true of any method book series, or choice of pieces or activities (in case a teacher doesn’t use method books).

My experience with music teachers is that a parent (or student) can’t fundamentally change how the teacher teaches. So if your daughter is going to stay with this teacher, I think you, and she, will be better off if you simply let the teacher teach.

What does your daughter say about all this? Does she like her piano lessons?

You responded to bennevis, essentially, that you’re very nice, so why would a teacher want to fire you and your daughter? But obnoxious second-guessing and mistrust can be presented with a total veneer of niceness. Doesn’t make the underlying intent invisible.

You say there are no other qualified teachers in your town, but if you're not living in a village it's hard to imagine how that could be. I'd call around speaking to as many people in the field as possible as you might find someone through word of mouth. I'd find a teacher I really like through research, then contact them, even if they're in Vienna. Tell them you'd really like them to be your child's teacher but they live too far from you, so what should you do? Let them recommend a course of action. They may have an opinion of other good teachers closer to you and start to lead you along a path to the right destination.

In my search, I first spoke over the phone to a teacher who it turned out lived too far south. She recommended a high quality teacher but he lived too far north. So I spoke with him and he recommended a good teacher who lives right near me. I wouldn't have found the teacher any other way.

If I were you I'd also consider paying for a one-off consultation with a good teacher even if they live too far away to see regularly to talk about piano pedagogy for your child. You have your ideas but it's worth knowing what good teachers think. They might even say that your current teacher is doing a good job and you should stick with her, who knows. This would be better to do before ending the current teacher in case you're making a mistake. Also considering paying for a session just between you and the current teacher, as by discussing at length why they're following their approach it might make sense and allay your fears.

Actually, there was no real discussion about teaching methods at the beginning.
And I was pretty naive when my daughter started taking lessons.

I found the teacher very likeable, especially her handling of children.
That was actually what I initially paid most attention to.

At our first meeting she just told me which book to get...afterwards we mainly talked about ourselves.
She was very interested in my own piano career, where I graduated, which teacher I had. It turned out, that we attended the same high school (but not at the same time, she is several years older than me)....and so on. It was a nice chat

But not very informative in terms of her preferd teaching method.
To be fair, I was very trusting and therefore did not question her extensivley...so this was my own failure, I presume.

But that was not his merit at all.

Fluency was one of my strengths right from the start.

More precisely, he barely taught me anything.

(By the way, I already was nine when I started lessons. Previously we did not have a piano at home. One day, out of surprise, my uncle sponsored a rental piano for my older brother, who was not interested. Unlike me. I sat down and just played. And loved it. In addition, I was already able to read music at the time. I have been singing in the children's choir before.)

The only thing he did was pick pieces I should play, recite them once, and then wait to see what I could prepare for the next lesson. To either praise or dispraise me then - as the case may be.

That was his idea of Teaching.

But at least he had got my parents to let me take part in a program that was originally too expensive for them.
(Yippee, a few extra weeks of my precious holiday season that I was `allowed` to spend by his side...)


However, he WAS a really bad teacher in just about every way. Just believe me.
That does not mean that he was not a talented pianist (he certainly was). But teaching only seemed to be a necessary evil for him.

I even longed to quit, just because of him and the pressure he caused ...
I was a sensitive kid who never complained. But looking back, I should have done just that.

By a lucky coincidence (he went abroad for some time) I got a new teacher at that time. I think that saved me. Otherwise, I probably would never have graduated.
(But let's not talk about the drama when he came back, but I wanted to stay with the other teacher. He made me feel like Judas ...or even worse)

Honestly, I still can`t even think about him without immediately feeling very uncomfortable ...I couldn`t stand it, if my daughter had a teacher like him.





In fact, it was me who taught her to read music.
Her teacher focuses only on the pieces and how well she plays them (after a week practicing).
But I don`t even blame her, because this kind of teaching is extremely common. Another reason why I am critical of a change of teachers within the same school. A new teacher would probably not be better technically, but possibly much more incompetent in human terms.
I don`t want to risk that.




That is something, I appreciate very much:
She lets the children play undisturbed first and only then makes them aware of any mistakes.



I'm not talking about that.
I think it's important that students really understand what they are playing. But this is only possible if they learn to read and interpret music on their own.

I really see no benefit in just creating "circus horses"...



I also do not feel qualified to teach any children. And I would never want that.
It's a little different with my own child though ...



As you can read, that's exactly what my plan was!

Unfortunately, desire and reality often diverge greatly.




We will see.

For now, everything is still very relaxed and without any bad vibs.

I am fully aware of this.
That's why I have to teach my daughter (also) myself, to get the most out of the method.

But that would not be possible if the teacher continued teaching other pieces from different books.




My thought has been this:
The piano lessons take place only once a week (for just 40 minutes), but I make music with my daughter every day.
So who will influence her more in the bottom line?

Of course, things would be very different if I were not musical educated myself. But (unfortunately?) I am.

I rally don`t want to work against the teacher, not at all. I see it more as a collaboration and a supplement.
Everything else would be nonsensical and highly counterproductive. I know that.



My daughter is very modest and happy with almost everything. She likes playing the piano and enjoys getting better at it.
But teaching itself is not very important to her so far.





Well, that comment was rather ironic.

(If Xanthippe is nice, then so am I )


But what's right: I'm really trying hard not to offend the teacher.

Which is why I did not say: "I want you to use these books from now on!", but asked, "How do you like these books?". And then we started talking.

If that's not kind, then what?
And she really likes my daughter.

I do live in sort of a village

There are piano teachers, but not (qualified) private ones. Everyone, who has an qualification teaches at one of the public music shools (conservatories, universities...etc.)

We do have a different teaching standard and system over her, that can`t be compared with those in Australia oder the US.

The musical education is more in state ownership (to ensure equal opportunities). In order to obtain a (national) qualification, you have to pass the public roads.

So private teaching is only a stopgap for students, who were not admitted to one of the music schools.
This has pros and cons.
Everyon can afford a musical education for thier child and the selection process is not based on money or other advanatges, but only aptitude.
On the other hand, you cannot reach for the stars if there are (nearly) none.

And I'm not "helicopter" enough, to devote my whole life to this topic (...searching for the best teacher in state).
Not now.
I want my daugther to decide herself how much effort she wants to make, as soon as she is old enough.
Then we`ll may think of other, more ambitious ways.

You are your daughter's teacher. Your daughter doesn't need another.

And I think her "teacher" knows it........

I often provide my own book for students to do a warm-up/sightreading, and tell them,
"I am checking on how you and this piano sound together on this day."
I am judging how they play, but also the mood, and how the lesson should go that day.

I have had a transfer wreck that had pretty much memorized the Primer Level Piano Adventures. I had to get many supplemental books for him, because the memorization was only that- zero knowledge of vocab, only thought the way to play was fast and loud, thought that his right hand fourth finger was named f, etc...

Sadly, even though mom sits in on lessons, she is playing on her phone and pays no attention. She writes in the (sometimes incorrect) note names or fingerings, and if he does a theory page incorrectly, he will blame her instead of his not following the basic directions.

All this to say,
the teacher should be teaching the grammar of music, so your daughter can learn to read at her own level. Just as a classroom teacher may have some students that read chapter books and other students that still are learning letter sounds, the teacher must meet each student at their level.

So what if they can sound out big words if they have no understanding of the words they read. Reading books without understanding is like memorizing music only by copying the teacher.

The goal of teachers, and even parents, is to guide the child at their level, to learn how to learn, to practice and grow bit by bit, and to be able to do more and more on their own.

There is no perfect formula or curriculum. A teacher should have a myriad of resources- books, worksheets, sightreading books, flashcards, recitals, assignment notebooks, parent communications, games, write on/off white board, even more books, etc...to be able to reach each student at their level.
Horizontal training is sometimes needed. (same lesson, presented dif ways)

And, finally, to the OP, ask around about other piano teachers.

There is a music school near me that is CONSTANTLY advertising. That tells me they have trouble retaining students. (They focus on fast vertical teaching, mostly memorizing, to show off.)

Sometimes a good teacher does not need to toot their horn to drum up business. Word of mouth is the best advertiser.

I think, that might be true in a sense ...

But I don`t feel like a real substitute for a qualified teacher. I see myself more as a mother supporting her child.

The fact that I play regularly with her is mainly due to my own love of music. Not because I want to take the teacher`s job off.
Sometimes one goes over into the other.
But essentially, I follow the pace and the guidelines of the teacher. Not the other way around.
I just deepen the learning.



You are kinda funny

But... what exactly do you mean?

She does not bother, because I'm too involved? Um...seriously?

@missbelle

Thanks for the insight into your way of working! It sounds great.
I really like the priorities that you set.

I'm surprised you don't get it, even though you've already admitted it yourself.

Now that we know more about what conversations you've had with her teacher, it's pretty obvious what's been happening.

Try putting yourself into the teacher's shoes. (That's what I do all the time, when I'm trying to understand the people I help in my job. Though not so much in internet forums...... ).

You were upfront about your accomplishments with her, she knew what you'd achieved in your pianistic past, your daughter almost certainly tells her in every lesson what you've been doing with her at the piano every day.

The teacher is tip-toeing around you, which was why she readily agreed to use a book you "showed" her, even though she' s never seen it before. I have no doubt that she wouldn't have, with anyone who wasn't an accomplished pianist like you. She isn't "teaching" your child the same way as she would any of her other students.

But I suspect that's the way you want it.........

Huh…that sounds like I'm instrumentalizing her only for my purposes! But I never would do such a nasty thing...(on purpose).



My daughter is pretty shy and rather quiet. She does not talk that much (by her own). Unless the teacher asks her specifically ... then she certainly answers truthfully.

But I'm honest with her anyway ... um, mostly. Unlike here, I do not constantly confront her with criticism. (I still think, I am quite pleasant to handle )

Apart from that, she knows that I have an eye (and ears) on my daughter`s playing.
But that’s pure self-protection too. I am pretty sensitive in that point (...bad playing hurts )

And she welcomes that my daughter practices regularly. Wouldn`t it be strange, if not?




Honestly, I am not sure about that!
It was never my initally plan to teach my daughter myself.
This happened rather in response to the poor teaching at school.

I once also had suspected, she treats me and my daughter differently because of my own education. Less solicitous in total.
Actually, I don’t like that thought at all, because it forced me into action.

I always wanted a teacher to whom I can entrust my daughter's education fully.

But that is not possible with someone who does not show a clear position (and she really does not... )

So maybe this was the beginning of everything: to feel a bit left in the lurch by her.