2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Petrof Pianos
Petrof Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Who's Online Now
65 members (Colette2, AlphaBravoCharlie, CoogerTown, danielp11, Anglagard44, clothearednincompo, AliMacLennan89, accordeur, 17 invisible), 513 guests, and 379 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
I know why I thought the playability of Garritan is worse
#2860840 06/20/19 12:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 136
H
Harpuia Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
H
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 136
I scanned through the “what DP really lacks” thread and saw people saying the number of velocity layers doesn’t matter that much in a sample piano.

Previously I thought 20 layers are the reason why I thought Garritan has worse playability, but it’s not really the case. I think what sample pianos really lack are the following:

1. Pedals (and finger pedals with sympathetic resonance). This is by far the most obvious weakness of sample pianos. Pedals are DEAD in sample pianos and I can’t describe how important it is. After you hit a note, you can only alter the note using pedals.

2. After I compared the same pieces played by Garritan and Pianoteq (recordings from Philip Johnston and Pianoteq website), I found the CFX Garritan uses tends to become bright when the velocity is a bit higher. Garritan sounds very good in big chord sections especially the bass, but the middle range notes sound a little bit too bright for my taste. That’s why I think the melody in the middle range sounds a little choppy and not singing like acoustic pianos.

3. Sympathetic resonance. Garritan is very weak at sympathetic resonance. The artificial string resonance sounds weak and fake. However, this is not a big issue if ambient mic is opened. Because the resonance from the ambient recording studio will overwhelm the string resonance anyway. Garritan is good at the ambient and reverb so it hides a lot of shortage of DPs. I must admit that I rarely found a recorded DP sound is convincing if the reverb is weak. Either sampling or modeling, there are many little details that we are missing to simulate a piano sound. For example, soundboard and body resonance, note release. If there is no reverb in DP sound, it also sounds too clean and not natural.

Re: I know why I thought the playability of Garritan is worse
Harpuia #2860850 06/20/19 12:35 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,465
G
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,465
Resonance modeling has come a long way in just a couple of years, IMO. Roland's SuperNatural Modeled/VPiano/PureAcoustic, Yamaha's new version of VRM, Kawai's SK-EX rendering engine.

I agree the implementation in Garritan CFX is pretty basic in comparison, but IMO the full-bodied tone from the ambient studio recording makes up for it to a large degree (so I agree with you on that as well).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: I know why I thought the playability of Garritan is worse
Harpuia #2860860 06/20/19 12:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,495
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,495
I agree that typical sample based VST-s struggle with the resonances and as I said in the other thread, the hybrid approach seems to be the best of both worlds: samples for their sheer beauty + resonance modeling. That's what actually latest Yamaha and Kawai pianos do, however they still use looped samples and would greatly benefit from multi-GB samples. Pianoteq on the other hand is great with the resonances but struggles with the timbre realism. I still think Pianoteq can license their resonance modeling to a sample software library such as Garritan and VSL. Or collaborate together in creating something good.

As to Garritan CFX, the string resonance is indeed fake and it's switched off by default and I've never switched it on. However the damper-down samples contain the real damper resonance of the CFX piano that was sampled and they are simply astonishing. That and the actual reverberation create a great sound. However the problem is that's just a static resonance with each note and all that is just replayed on each note, rather than being computed by a single resonance engine. As to string resonance, I haven't found myself so much impressed with the string resonance as an effect at all, because even on real acoustic pianos it's really subtle. It's when pedal is pressed on real pianos that things become very complicated.

I think all cons and pros taken, for me the latest Yamaha and Kawai pianos are the best balance. But they still need improvement, so not all is perfect. Then follow the huge sampled libraries because for my taste timbre is more important than resonances. And last is Pianoteq and other modeled pianos because to my taste synthetic piano timbre is the the quickest way to get bored. That's just me smile YMMV

Last edited by CyberGene; 06/20/19 12:56 PM.

My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: I know why I thought the playability of Garritan is worse
Harpuia #2860864 06/20/19 01:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 136
H
Harpuia Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
H
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 136
It’s interesting that Roland came up with fully modeled V-piano, and then went to the hybrid approach for their SuperNatural engine. However, their latest model seems to switch to a new fully modeled engine.

Re: I know why I thought the playability of Garritan is worse
Harpuia #2860867 06/20/19 01:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,465
G
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,465
Originally Posted by Harpuia
It’s interesting that Roland came up with fully modeled V-piano, and then went to the hybrid approach for their SuperNatural engine. However, their latest model seems to switch to a new fully modeled engine.


I think the original V-Piano was a very expensive "halo product" and was not cost-effective to produce for their lower-cost pianos. SuperNatural Hybid did the job until they were able to develop and economize SuperNatural Modeled, RD-2000 V-Piano, and now PureAcoustic.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: I know why I thought the playability of Garritan is worse
Gombessa #2860872 06/20/19 01:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,706
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,706
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Harpuia
It’s interesting that Roland came up with fully modeled V-piano, and then went to the hybrid approach for their SuperNatural engine. However, their latest model seems to switch to a new fully modeled engine.


I think the original V-Piano was a very expensive "halo product" and was not cost-effective to produce for their lower-cost pianos. SuperNatural Hybid did the job until they were able to develop and economize SuperNatural Modeled, RD-2000 V-Piano, and now PureAcoustic.

Though digital pianos may have developed slowly overall, CPUs have gotten more powerful in these 10 years since the V-Piano was first released, by Moore's Law. My educated guess is that this would affect modeling more than sampling, and might explain the shift back and forth between these two.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: I know why I thought the playability of Garritan is worse
Harpuia #2860875 06/20/19 01:32 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,495
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,495
It's not back and forth per se. The V-Piano was a technology demonstrator, so to speak but never meant to be a mainstream model. However their mainstream digital pianos followed a gradual technology evolution: sampled -> sampled + modeled -> fully modeled -> even fuller modeled laugh

Last edited by CyberGene; 06/20/19 01:33 PM.

My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: I know why I thought the playability of Garritan is worse
Harpuia #2860880 06/20/19 01:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,940
3000 Post Club Member
Online Crying
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,940
I find Roland's path to be more interesting than Pianoteq's. There is a realism about Roland that I think Pianoteq lacks, even though Roland can sound a bit colourless in comparison. Roland's attacks are much better IMHO. That has always been the biggest weakness in Pianoteq.


Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Musician's Hand Sanitizer available in our online store (and our Maple Street Music shop in Cornish Maine). Antibacterial, 62% ethyl alcohol. Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Tons more music related products in our online store!
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Where Did The Buttons Go?!
----------------------
Our April 2020 Newsletter Available Online Now...
The Piano World During the Pandemic!
----------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
What do you think of Lang Lang?
by DreamPiano80 - 06/03/20 12:48 PM
Casio piano
by Colette2 - 06/03/20 11:43 AM
Kawai CA79: Pre-Assembled vs Boxed
by DecathlonLeo - 06/03/20 11:41 AM
Spare plastic parts for keyboard/bed
by Doug Woodrow - 06/03/20 11:35 AM
Japanese vs German pianos
by GnGEmpire - 06/03/20 10:52 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics199,378
Posts2,965,526
Members97,289
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4