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Testing Kawai nv10 and ca98 #2860673
06/20/19 01:07 AM
06/20/19 01:07 AM
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dtrvno Offline OP
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Hi, today I tested Kawai pianos
Here is my notes
1 nv10
Lot of expectations but piano really disappointed. First of all sound is great, but touch itself is questionable. Problem when you touch it is kick you back strongly, and you fill kind of dribbling in fingers. It is very stressful. I could not play scales on that. Second problem with touch - it is not deep enough, I had two pianos and feel nv10 much shorter touch then other pianos.

2 ca98

Sound is great, touch is excellent. Only problem is black keys have different material then usual acoustic piano. It is not critical problem.

So, based on my analysis I will stay with CA98.


Any other opinions about nv10 touch?

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Re: Testing Kawai nv10 and ca98 [Re: dtrvno] #2860685
06/20/19 01:58 AM
06/20/19 01:58 AM
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Nordomus Offline
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I didn't have any problem with touch on NV10, felt good. That said I didn't play too long. What I had problem with was boxy sound which I don't have on CA98. Might be some hidden setting though so I will hold with final judgement of that. Soundboard is amazing and in my opinion all top tier digital pianos should have one.
On CA98 black keys are different- yes but there are acoustic grands with something similar. Also it actually benefits playing a bit because there is slightly smaller chance your finger will slip from black key.
NV10 certainly has better keys, on CA98 there is not enough felt on the keys so they are a bit noisy with side movements, NV10 doesn't have that problem.

Re: Testing Kawai nv10 and ca98 [Re: dtrvno] #2860734
06/20/19 06:10 AM
06/20/19 06:10 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 366
Germany
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Tyr Offline
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Quote
Any other opinions about nv10 touch?


The dribbling in the fingers is coming from the let off due to the mechanic. All accoustics and hybrid digitals have that. Some more some less. The CA98 has it too but way more subtle.


Current: Yamaha NU1X | Roland FP-30 with Garritan CFX Full & Pianoteq 6
Past: Yamaha: P-115, YDP-163, CLP-545, CLP-685 | Kawai: CA-98, Novus NV10
Re: Testing Kawai nv10 and ca98 [Re: dtrvno] #2860744
06/20/19 06:54 AM
06/20/19 06:54 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,966
Dublin
johnstaf Offline
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What do you mean by "dribbling in the fingers"?

Last edited by johnstaf; 06/20/19 06:57 AM.
Re: Testing Kawai nv10 and ca98 [Re: dtrvno] #2860797
06/20/19 09:39 AM
06/20/19 09:39 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,867
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
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Originally Posted by dtrvno
Hi, today I tested Kawai pianos
Here is my notes
1 nv10
touch itself is questionable.
...
2 ca98
touch is excellent.

You lost me there...


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Testing Kawai nv10 and ca98 [Re: dtrvno] #2860798
06/20/19 09:44 AM
06/20/19 09:44 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,905
Georgia, USA
terminaldegree Offline
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What level of pianist are you?
How often do you get to play good quality acoustic grand pianos?
What is your primary practice instrument?


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Re: Testing Kawai nv10 and ca98 [Re: terminaldegree] #2860821
06/20/19 10:57 AM
06/20/19 10:57 AM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 19
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dtrvno Offline OP
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I can play Chopin op25 #2.
Is it enough for justification?

Re: Testing Kawai nv10 and ca98 [Re: dtrvno] #2860843
06/20/19 12:17 PM
06/20/19 12:17 PM
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Gombessa Offline
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Originally Posted by dtrvno

So, based on my analysis I will stay with CA98.


Sounds like you found the right piano for you, and potentially saved a lot of money in the process!

BTW, there is no "standard" key texture for either white or black keys on an acoustic. For the blacks, some are smooth resin, some are wood, some are matte, even the key widths and spacing can differ noticeably, even within the same brand.

As to key dip, I think most pianos uniformly have ~10mm dip in the front, and in the back it widely differs due to the position of the pilot point, but larger grands have at least 5mm. I've not noticed anything odd about the key dip on my NV-10.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Testing Kawai nv10 and ca98 [Re: dtrvno] #2860848
06/20/19 12:32 PM
06/20/19 12:32 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 82
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MrKaramba Online content
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Originally Posted by dtrvno
I can play Chopin op25 #2.
Is it enough for justification?


That's actually pretty easy Etude...
And saying it by "I can play" means that this is the hardest pieces you ever played with lots of effort,, so on absolute scale you are somewhere like 3/10.

And if by a kickback you mean upforce which can easily lift your fingers up, that's something what is even desirable.

Ca98 is kind of of sluggish compared to properly regulated grand.

Last edited by MrKaramba; 06/20/19 12:42 PM.
Re: Testing Kawai nv10 and ca98 [Re: MrKaramba] #2860852
06/20/19 12:41 PM
06/20/19 12:41 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 5,457
Tyrone Slothrop Offline
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Originally Posted by MrKaramba
Originally Posted by dtrvno
I can play Chopin op25 #2.
Is it enough for justification?
That's actually pretty easy Etude...
And saying it by "I can play" means that this is the hardest pieces you ever played, so on absolute scale you are somewhere like 3/10

Your system of rating is flawed. Henle which is more trustworthy and known to have a hard grading system rates 25/2 as 7 "difficult" of their maximum of 9. The various exam systems rate it from the proficient level (grade 8) to diploma level. Rating it 3/10 is unsubstantiated and not well-founded.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Testing Kawai nv10 and ca98 [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2860855
06/20/19 12:45 PM
06/20/19 12:45 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 82
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MrKaramba Online content
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by MrKaramba
Originally Posted by dtrvno
I can play Chopin op25 #2.
Is it enough for justification?
That's actually pretty easy Etude...
And saying it by "I can play" means that this is the hardest pieces you ever played, so on absolute scale you are somewhere like 3/10

Your system of rating is flawed. Henle which is more trustworthy and known to have a hard grading system rates 25/2 as 7 "difficult" of their maximum of 9. The various exam systems rate it from the proficient level (grade 8) to diploma level. Rating it 3/10 is unsubstantiated and not well-founded.


If 25/2 is 7/9 so where we should put 10/4 or 10/2 or 25/10 and11? They should be far out of the scale ..

Polonaise op 53 is usually rated at 7.5

Re: Testing Kawai nv10 and ca98 [Re: MrKaramba] #2860859
06/20/19 12:53 PM
06/20/19 12:53 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 5,457
Tyrone Slothrop Offline
Tyrone Slothrop  Offline

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Posts: 5,457
Originally Posted by MrKaramba
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Your system of rating is flawed. Henle which is more trustworthy and known to have a hard grading system rates 25/2 as 7 "difficult" of their maximum of 9. The various exam systems rate it from the proficient level (grade 8) to diploma level. Rating it 3/10 is unsubstantiated and not well-founded.
If 25/2 is 7/9 so where we should put 10/4 or 10/2 or 25/10 and11? They should be far out of the scale ..

Polonaise op 53 is usually rated at 7.5

10/2 - Henle 8 of 9 (also, RCM licentiate level)
10/4 - Henle 8 of 9 (also, RCM licentiate level)
25/10 - Henle 9 of 9 (also, RCM associate diploma level)
25/11 - Henle 9 of 9 (also, RCM licentiate level)
53 - Henle 8 of 9 (also, RCM associate diploma level)


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Testing Kawai nv10 and ca98 [Re: dtrvno] #2860874
06/20/19 01:32 PM
06/20/19 01:32 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,966
Dublin
johnstaf Offline
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johnstaf  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,966
Dublin
I believe the etude deserves to be a 7, while bearing in mind that 9 just means more difficult than 8, and has no upper limit, so it can range from the Waldstein Sonata to the Hammerklavier, Gaspard de la Nuit, or Islamey. That's where 25/11 lives.

Henle have recently changed some of their ratings. The Waldstein and Mephisto Waltz were previously 8, and now they're 9. Some of Henle's ratings are very strange. Beethoven's "Tempest" sonata is now listed as an 8, so someone in Henle thinks it's as difficult as op.81a or Ravel's Une barque sur l'océan. Maybe it's a typo.

Re: Testing Kawai nv10 and ca98 [Re: dtrvno] #2860886
06/20/19 01:49 PM
06/20/19 01:49 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 19
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dtrvno Offline OP
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Guys
I remind you, this post not about my piano skills -I know better that anyone my level of playing. And I want to improve.

This post about nv10 and CA98.
Again , nv10 kick me back into fingers and I do not like it.

Is anybody had the same problem?
Just try to play scales...

Also, nv10’s touch is not deep enough comparing with other pianos and grands located at dealer store.
Am I correct with this statement? Or it is just my opinion?

Thanks,
Dmitriy

Re: Testing Kawai nv10 and ca98 [Re: dtrvno] #2860888
06/20/19 01:54 PM
06/20/19 01:54 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 5,457
Tyrone Slothrop Offline
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Originally Posted by dtrvno
Guys
I remind you, this post not about my piano skills -I know better that anyone my level of playing. And I want to improve.

This post about nv10 and CA98.
Again , nv10 kick me back into fingers and I do not like it.

Is anybody had the same problem?
Just try to play scales...

Also, nv10’s touch is not deep enough comparing with other pianos and grands located at dealer store.
Am I correct with this statement? Or it is just my opinion?

Thanks,
Dmitriy

Dmitriy, have you tried a real acoustical grand? Did it not kick back into your fingers? I don't think the NV10 would do anything that a real Kawai acoustical piano would not.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Testing Kawai nv10 and ca98 [Re: dtrvno] #2860889
06/20/19 01:54 PM
06/20/19 01:54 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,867
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
3000 Post Club Member
CyberGene  Online Content
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,867
Sofia, Bulgaria
NV10 is a real grand piano action. And a great one at that. That’s how real pianos feel. Although I don’t know what you mean by “kicking back your fingers”. But if you prefer the CA98 then there’s nothing wrong. Quite on the contrary, you seem to prefer the cheaper piano, nothing better than that smile


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Testing Kawai nv10 and ca98 [Re: CyberGene] #2860890
06/20/19 01:58 PM
06/20/19 01:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 5,457
Tyrone Slothrop Offline
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
NV10 is a real grand piano action. And a great one at that. That’s how real pianos feel. Although I don’t know what you mean by “kicking back your fingers”. But if you prefer the CA98 then there’s nothing wrong. Quite on the contrary, you seem to prefer the cheaper piano, nothing better than that smile

And to add to your thought, even if a real acoustical piano does the same thing as the NV10 w/ respect to kicking, this doesn't mean Dmitriy has to like or accept it. As long as Dmitriy is not training himself to play acoustical pianos, he can get whatever piano pleases him the most, even if that piano is actually not like an acoustical piano. The caveat here is that I expect the further a piano is from being similar to an acoustical piano, in behavior, the harder it will be, possibly, to learn/play classical repertoire, and the greater the probability of injuring (hands, fingers, wrists, etc.).


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Testing Kawai nv10 and ca98 [Re: dtrvno] #2860893
06/20/19 02:03 PM
06/20/19 02:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,966
Dublin
johnstaf Offline
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Originally Posted by dtrvno
Also, nv10’s touch is not deep enough comparing with other pianos and grands located at dealer store.
Am I correct with this statement? Or it is just my opinion?


It's possible, as there isn't really a standard depth. It's usually around 10mm, but can be more. Another thing is the height of the black keys. Black keys that are less than 12mm above the white keys can make the piano feel shallow. Very shallow aftertouch (once you get past the "bump" in the key travel) can also make an action feel shallow.

Like going from heavy to light, it's easier to go from deep to shallow than the other way around.

Re: Testing Kawai nv10 and ca98 [Re: dtrvno] #2860894
06/20/19 02:07 PM
06/20/19 02:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,966
Dublin
johnstaf Offline
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I agree with CyberGene and Tyrone. Your preference is all that matters.

Re: Testing Kawai nv10 and ca98 [Re: dtrvno] #2860906
06/20/19 02:24 PM
06/20/19 02:24 PM
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Posts: 19
Los Angeles, CA
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Lance VI Labs Offline
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Originally Posted by dtrvno
Hi, today I tested Kawai pianos
Here is my notes
1 nv10
Lot of expectations but piano really disappointed. First of all sound is great, but touch itself is questionable. Problem when you touch it is kick you back strongly, and you fill kind of dribbling in fingers. It is very stressful. I could not play scales on that. Second problem with touch - it is not deep enough, I had two pianos and feel nv10 much shorter touch then other pianos.

2 ca98

Sound is great, touch is excellent. Only problem is black keys have different material then usual acoustic piano. It is not critical problem.

So, based on my analysis I will stay with CA98.


Any other opinions about nv10 touch?


I agree with your assessment of the NV10 action feel. I've spent some time with it at two different NAMM shows, and I'm rather disappointed as well. The action wasn't smooth at all. I counted six different points of friction in the key as I pressed the key down--it went through six 'bumps' or rough spots during the travel. The keys had more wiggle than an acoustic grand action, the aftertouch was spongy, and the whole thing felt rather 'plasticky' and not like a good quality acoustic grand action. And I agree, it seemed a bit shallow too. I too felt the 'kickback' the OP noticed, like the key doesn't want to stay down and the flyback inertia of the hammer is pressing the key back up against your finger.

Of course the only other comparison really is from Yamaha, and those are rather buttery smooth compared to the Kawai (though still not as smooth as a real acoustic grand action). Also, the NV10 damper pedal was ridiculously heavy. While not as mechanically complex with its complexity translating to the feel, the MP11 and VPC1 feel much better, smoother, less plasticky. I see a lot of love for the NV10 on this forum, but my experiences with it at NAMM were lackluster to say the least. Anyone else notice these qualities?


Lance @ VI Labs
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