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What about a dealer that doesn't recondition their pianos? #2860764
06/20/19 08:12 AM
06/20/19 08:12 AM
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PianoWVBob Offline OP
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So as I'm trying to figure out where to take a trip to play and try and buy a piano, I see this dealer in Dayton, a huge store and their prices are right up my alley! They have a lot of uprights to choose from too.

One thing that I noticed so far is that they don't say "this piano has been reconditioned from the bottom up by our skilled technicians!" like some stores do. For example they say about this Kawai:

Link:
https://www.pianocenter.com/gallery...ght-made-in-japan-satin-walnut-excellent

"This 44″ Kawai professional upright is in Superb Condition inside and outside.The piano has been professionally concert tuned to A-440 .The piano was rarely played and came from a home environment and was professionally maintained every year. The cabinet is beautiful satin walnut and is in Superb Condition! Please see detailed photos and Greg’s Live Video. Fantastic touch and tone !"

So that means that they don't recondition them, only that whatever piano they are referring to is in "good shape" but still older.

Is there a reason to not buy such a piano? It's only $2,341 That's incredibly inexpensive to me considering what I've seen so far.



Also, they have brand new Hamburgs for $3,900!

What's the catch? Is there some reason to stay away from this brand? How could a new upright be that cheap?

Here is the link:

http://www.pianocenter.com/upright-piano-gallery


I'm just trying to get a mental handle on this situation, after seeing such high prices on pianos in other places this store sounds like a dream come true.

Last edited by PianoWVBob; 06/20/19 08:13 AM.
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Re: What about a dealer that doesn't recondition their pianos? [Re: PianoWVBob] #2860767
06/20/19 08:16 AM
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PS: I can see why folks get the urge to buy a piano online..I'm salivating right now.

It's only a 4 hour drive for me and with such a selection, it seems likely that I could come home with a piano.

Re: What about a dealer that doesn't recondition their pianos? [Re: PianoWVBob] #2860788
06/20/19 09:16 AM
06/20/19 09:16 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,263
Queensland, Australia
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It's like cars:
1) You can have a brand new TOYOTA ...
2) Or a TOYOTA with a few kilometers, end of 3yr lease, immaculate condition, properly serviced ...
3) Or a TOYOTA which has been used for 10 years looked after well by a careful retiree but with 160,000 kms, well serviced, very good and clean ...
4) Or a TOYOTA which has done the school run, never been vacuumed, washed, only occasionally serviced - but with only 100,000 km ...
5) OR a 1968 TOYOTA 2000GT - which has been immaculately restored - because it's worth restoring - and for sale for more than a new Ferrari.

There are about 3 or 4 different grades of car-yards - one only sells "1)" and "2)" grade cars. Yet at the other end - are yards which sell mostly "4)" grade cars - rough, worn or old.

Each meets a demand. The guy selling grade "4)" cars isn't expected to have it restored to immaculate - just so it runs and meets safety requirements. And that's all some car buyers are looking for - or can afford.

Buying a piano is maybe a bit more tricky as there are dealers who will sell new pianos - and sell, as a "wholesale" type deal the pianos which he traded. But - he's not interested in restoring them to "as new" - as there are people who are actually looking for a $2341 piano which plays OK - but isn't exciting. That person won't pay $5999 for the same piano after it's been cleaned, rehammered, dampered, stringed, regulated and refinished.

He's filling in a niche of the market.

Looking for pianos is best done by going to look at them. Buying my first grand - I wasn't certain what I wanted, just something I liked playing and which was better than the fairly worn YAMAHA I had. I tried many, many pianos, new or used on the market in showrooms in my city. I guess 100+. Some I played 3 notes and went to the next, others I played for a minute or 2.


Alan from Queensland, Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert & Allen Organ (CF-17a)).
Re: What about a dealer that doesn't recondition their pianos? [Re: PianoWVBob] #2860790
06/20/19 09:21 AM
06/20/19 09:21 AM
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I dislike being the wet rag -- nothing here looks like all that great of a deal, from my view. The walnut Kawai you linked appears to be from 1978-79 (source: https://www.thepianoshopbath.co.uk/kawai-pianos/kawai-piano-serial-numbers/).

To me, it seems improbable that a piano was both "rarely played" (emphasis theirs) and also professionally maintained every year. Those two things rarely go together, especially in the case of a commodity upright piano.

I'd never heard of the Hamburg brand. Likely playing off S&S's association with Hamburg (the city).

The dealer might be worth a drive to just so that you can play a bunch of pianos and figure out what you like. Read Larry Fine's book (www.pianobuyer.com), get an expectation of what you should be paying for a given piano, and get an independent inspection when you finally do land on something.

Re: What about a dealer that doesn't recondition their pianos? [Re: PianoWVBob] #2860792
06/20/19 09:26 AM
06/20/19 09:26 AM
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MarkL Offline
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That piano is 40 years old. You could buy a new K15 or 508, which are comparable size and quality level, for about $4500ish, depending on where you live. So if you really like the touch and sound of the piano, and a tech checks it out, it's possibly a way to save a few thousand dollars, but at that age it might require some attention that could cost a good bit of money.


Yamaha P90, Kawai GL-10
Re: What about a dealer that doesn't recondition their pianos? [Re: PianoWVBob] #2860793
06/20/19 09:26 AM
06/20/19 09:26 AM
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Bob - I don’t know if you’ve ever been house hunting or apartment hunting recently but when you look at all the specifications and pictures online and think THIS IS THE ONE, but when you see it with your own eyes and walk through it, the disappointment comes and hangs over your shoulder like a hungry crow. Piano listings on a website are very much like that. Look up Hallet & Davis or Hamburg in the Piano Buyer book and searchable databases. If I remember correctly the prices typically charged are rather reasonable. I’ve never played either upright so I won’t say negative things, but I don’t think those brands are rated very high. Only you and maybe your hired piano tech should judge them for yourself. I have no idea how selective your ears and hands really are so the trip to the piano dealer should be very exciting and fun. Bring a big notebook and take notes on each piano you play. If you come home with a piano, congratulations! If disappointment reigns supreme, now you know. You’ve learned how to dispassionately read the dealer’s piano descriptions.


J & J
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Re: What about a dealer that doesn't recondition their pianos? [Re: PianoWVBob] #2860794
06/20/19 09:26 AM
06/20/19 09:26 AM
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The Kawai is 41 years old, and wasn’t that expensive a model to begin with. So, that seems more like a normal dealer price for a piano that’s been prepped and with a warranty.

The other piano you list is a “stencil” piano with a sort of misleading name. I’d rather have the Hallett, since at least I’d know who built it (no, it was not assembled in Germany) and that the US distribution has been around for a while to support it.

It is nice to have many choices all together, assuming what you’re looking for is actually prepped and tuned to show.


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Re: What about a dealer that doesn't recondition their pianos? [Re: PianoWVBob] #2860795
06/20/19 09:31 AM
06/20/19 09:31 AM
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Queensland, Australia
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You also say "Also, they have brand new Hamburgs for $3,900!"

It appears to be a Chinese piano made by Pearl River - the exact same model (up121S) is sold here as a BEALE - which used to be a respected Australian manufacturer. I think you'll find them very ordinary. But they do put a 10 yr warranty on them here.


Alan from Queensland, Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert & Allen Organ (CF-17a)).
Re: What about a dealer that doesn't recondition their pianos? [Re: PianoWVBob] #2860801
06/20/19 09:56 AM
06/20/19 09:56 AM
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PianoWVBob Offline OP
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Wow...lot to learn.

I guess it's worth a trip to play them.

As for what I'll be doing with it...just playing for pleasure, for myself, Christmas carols, messing around etc. I have no aspirations of playing out or in front of folks so as long as a piano plays well, sounds good to me and won't fall apart in 5 years, I'm pretty easy to please.

I'm basically making sure that some particular brand isn't a lemon and I'm buying years worth of housecalls or that there are structural issues with a particular brand so in 5 years "all of the hammers will need to be replaced..." or something like that.

To me, every piano that I watched a video of sounded good.

Re: What about a dealer that doesn't recondition their pianos? [Re: backto_study_piano] #2860802
06/20/19 09:57 AM
06/20/19 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by backto_study_piano
You also say "Also, they have brand new Hamburgs for $3,900!"

It appears to be a Chinese piano made by Pearl River - the exact same model (up121S) is sold here as a BEALE - which used to be a respected Australian manufacturer. I think you'll find them very ordinary. But they do put a 10 yr warranty on them here.


Ordinary might be ok for me. I can't tell the difference between something great and something just ok.

I started playing in January of this year and so if what I choose seems good to me for 5 years or more before I get restless for something better I'll be VERY happy.

Last edited by PianoWVBob; 06/20/19 09:58 AM.
Re: What about a dealer that doesn't recondition their pianos? [Re: backto_study_piano] #2860805
06/20/19 10:00 AM
06/20/19 10:00 AM
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PianoWVBob Offline OP
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Originally Posted by backto_study_piano
It's like cars:
1) You can have a brand new TOYOTA ...
2) Or a TOYOTA with a few kilometers, end of 3yr lease, immaculate condition, properly serviced ...
3) Or a TOYOTA which has been used for 10 years looked after well by a careful retiree but with 160,000 kms, well serviced, very good and clean ...
4) Or a TOYOTA which has done the school run, never been vacuumed, washed, only occasionally serviced - but with only 100,000 km ...
5) OR a 1968 TOYOTA 2000GT - which has been immaculately restored - because it's worth restoring - and for sale for more than a new Ferrari.

There are about 3 or 4 different grades of car-yards - one only sells "1)" and "2)" grade cars. Yet at the other end - are yards which sell mostly "4)" grade cars - rough, worn or old.

Each meets a demand. The guy selling grade "4)" cars isn't expected to have it restored to immaculate - just so it runs and meets safety requirements. And that's all some car buyers are looking for - or can afford.

Buying a piano is maybe a bit more tricky as there are dealers who will sell new pianos - and sell, as a "wholesale" type deal the pianos which he traded. But - he's not interested in restoring them to "as new" - as there are people who are actually looking for a $2341 piano which plays OK - but isn't exciting. That person won't pay $5999 for the same piano after it's been cleaned, rehammered, dampered, stringed, regulated and refinished.

He's filling in a niche of the market.

Looking for pianos is best done by going to look at them. Buying my first grand - I wasn't certain what I wanted, just something I liked playing and which was better than the fairly worn YAMAHA I had. I tried many, many pianos, new or used on the market in showrooms in my city. I guess 100+. Some I played 3 notes and went to the next, others I played for a minute or 2.



So, is there anything wrong with buying a well cared for Toyota as long as I understand that it's not a ferrari and that it will last me for years to come without structural issues?

If someone gave me a piano and it turned out that it was well cared for and had low wear and had been checked out by a tech I'd be happy as a clam.

Re: What about a dealer that doesn't recondition their pianos? [Re: PianoWVBob] #2860808
06/20/19 10:10 AM
06/20/19 10:10 AM
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Posts: 1,140
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j&j Offline
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Originally Posted by PianoWVBob
Originally Posted by backto_study_piano
You also say "Also, they have brand new Hamburgs for $3,900!"

It appears to be a Chinese piano made by Pearl River - the exact same model (up121S) is sold here as a BEALE - which used to be a respected Australian manufacturer. I think you'll find them very ordinary. But they do put a 10 yr warranty on them here.


Ordinary might be ok for me. I can't tell the difference between something great and something just ok.

I started playing in January of this year and so if what I choose seems good to me for 5 years or more before I get restless for something better I'll be VERY happy.

People on PianoWorld, including myself, frequently forget that a pianist has to learn to fully heard the sound coming out of the piano. Their fingers and hands also learn sensitivity and gain the ability to control the dynamics of the sound. Many times, someone learning piano can’t hear or feel much difference in a high quality expensive piano or a lower priced consumer brand of piano. Playing a wide variety of pianos develops your sensitivity. Play as many different pianos as you can before plopping down your cash. Typically acoustic pianos don’t sell like hot cakes so take your time and enjoy the shopping as long as you can.


J & J
Yamaha C3 PE
Casio Privia PX-330
Pianos - the reason God made trees!
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Re: What about a dealer that doesn't recondition their pianos? [Re: MarkL] #2860809
06/20/19 10:11 AM
06/20/19 10:11 AM
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PianoWVBob Offline OP
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Originally Posted by MarkL
That piano is 40 years old. You could buy a new K15 or 508, which are comparable size and quality level, for about $4500ish, depending on where you live. So if you really like the touch and sound of the piano, and a tech checks it out, it's possibly a way to save a few thousand dollars, but at that age it might require some attention that could cost a good bit of money.


Ahh..understood.

for me 2,300 to 4,500 is quite a chunk of change considering I'll be playing for myself and my wife only and to me...every piano I hear sounds good to me where others say no or yes. I don't have any aspirations of playing out, playing in front of anyone or anything like that.

Re: What about a dealer that doesn't recondition their pianos? [Re: j&j] #2860811
06/20/19 10:12 AM
06/20/19 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by j&j
Originally Posted by PianoWVBob
Originally Posted by backto_study_piano
You also say "Also, they have brand new Hamburgs for $3,900!"

It appears to be a Chinese piano made by Pearl River - the exact same model (up121S) is sold here as a BEALE - which used to be a respected Australian manufacturer. I think you'll find them very ordinary. But they do put a 10 yr warranty on them here.


Ordinary might be ok for me. I can't tell the difference between something great and something just ok.

I started playing in January of this year and so if what I choose seems good to me for 5 years or more before I get restless for something better I'll be VERY happy.

People on PianoWorld, including myself, frequently forget that a pianist has to learn to fully heard the sound coming out of the piano. Their fingers and hands also learn sensitivity and gain the ability to control the dynamics of the sound. Many times, someone learning piano can’t hear or feel much difference in a high quality expensive piano or a lower priced consumer brand of piano. Playing a wide variety of pianos develops your sensitivity. Play as many different pianos as you can before plopping down your cash. Typically acoustic pianos don’t sell like hot cakes so take your time and enjoy the shopping as long as you can.

Yes, that would be me to a T.

Thanks for the advice, it's appreciated.

Re: What about a dealer that doesn't recondition their pianos? [Re: PianoWVBob] #2860817
06/20/19 10:43 AM
06/20/19 10:43 AM
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I bought a piano from BHA Piano Center. You may have seen my posts about it on here. It was an Aeolian Knabe, 5'8", and would not hold tune. The seller, and his tame piano tuner, said it was because my house was too damp because I didn't have air conditioning. He suggested I have oversized tuning pins installed, at extra cost of course. The advice I got on this Forum was that late Aeolians have high string angles and it is difficult to get the strings to render, so they get bad unisons after you play them a while -- exactly what was happening with this piano.
I did get my money back, but I had to pay for the return move. I recently saw the same piano offered for a shade under $2,000, which would be a great price if it would only hold tune.
I did pay the local tech to inspect the instrument before I bought it, and he did recommend it. We should have been warned by the bad unison it had on the showroom floor and not believed the seller's story.
From my own experience, I would stay away from BHA. Piano Pros in Cincinnati is a lot more trustworthy.
As for cheap Chinese pianos, I have played an Essex that was a joke -- no resonance and a toy-piano treble. I'm told that Hailun is a lot better. I think you would be better off buying a new cheap one than a questionable old instrument.

Re: What about a dealer that doesn't recondition their pianos? [Re: edferris] #2860818
06/20/19 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by edferris
I bought a piano from BHA Piano Center. You may have seen my posts about it on here. It was an Aeolian Knabe, 5'8", and would not hold tune. The seller, and his tame piano tuner, said it was because my house was too damp because I didn't have air conditioning. He suggested I have oversized tuning pins installed, at extra cost of course. The advice I got on this Forum was that late Aeolians have high string angles and it is difficult to get the strings to render, so they get bad unisons after you play them a while -- exactly what was happening with this piano.
I did get my money back, but I had to pay for the return move. I recently saw the same piano offered for a shade under $2,000, which would be a great price if it would only hold tune.
I did pay the local tech to inspect the instrument before I bought it, and he did recommend it. We should have been warned by the bad unison it had on the showroom floor and not believed the seller's story.
From my own experience, I would stay away from BHA. Piano Pros in Cincinnati is a lot more trustworthy.
As for cheap Chinese pianos, I have played an Essex that was a joke -- no resonance and a toy-piano treble. I'm told that Hailun is a lot better. I think you would be better off buying a new cheap one than a questionable old instrument.


Thanks for the warning...that's about the same distance to me as BHA.

Too bad it's only one data point, that's not necessarily indicative of how they do business every day of the week. No offense intended, don't take it that way.

I will go to Piano Pros though, thanks for alerting me to their shop.

Re: What about a dealer that doesn't recondition their pianos? [Re: PianoWVBob] #2860824
06/20/19 11:04 AM
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I would also recommend Paul Graves in Columbus, if that's not too far away. He has a back room full of older parlor grands and uprights.

Re: What about a dealer that doesn't recondition their pianos? [Re: edferris] #2860827
06/20/19 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by edferris
I would also recommend Paul Graves in Columbus, if that's not too far away. He has a back room full of older parlor grands and uprights.



Thanks! He's got a ton of used uprights in my price range!

He seems like he's pretty legit.

That might be my first stop.

Just a point of reference, all he does is check them before selling too, no rebuilding for these prices.

Last edited by PianoWVBob; 06/20/19 11:11 AM.
Re: What about a dealer that doesn't recondition their pianos? [Re: PianoWVBob] #2860839
06/20/19 12:02 PM
06/20/19 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by PianoWVBob
[quote=MarkL]
for me 2,300 to 4,500 is quite a chunk of change considering I'll be playing for myself and my wife only and to me...every piano I hear sounds good to me where others say no or yes. I don't have any aspirations of playing out, playing in front of anyone or anything like that.


Are you really listening to the pianos (and preferably playing them yourself, even if it is just scales) or just listening to recordings on you tube or websites? If you listen to the real thing you should notice large and noticeable differences in the sound.

Re: What about a dealer that doesn't recondition their pianos? [Re: gwing] #2860841
06/20/19 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by gwing
Originally Posted by PianoWVBob
[quote=MarkL]
for me 2,300 to 4,500 is quite a chunk of change considering I'll be playing for myself and my wife only and to me...every piano I hear sounds good to me where others say no or yes. I don't have any aspirations of playing out, playing in front of anyone or anything like that.


Are you really listening to the pianos (and preferably playing them yourself, even if it is just scales) or just listening to recordings on you tube or websites? If you listen to the real thing you should notice large and noticeable differences in the sound.

So far just recordings and only a few crappy pianos that I've evaluated to buy. I guess what you are saying is that in person, playing pianos that are viable candidates for buying I might be able to tell the difference.

Maybe I should have said that I can hear that one is brighter or darker, more muted or something but as far as "better" I don't think I could tell a 50,000 piano from a 2,500 piano in a blind test.

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