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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2860735
06/20/19 06:13 AM
06/20/19 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Pete14
Still a good controller but not necessarily the best; especially as it relates to the P-515 which gives you so much more in terms of very sought after and useful features: on-board sounds, built-in speakers, audio interface, available -matching- stand/pedal-board, etc.... Are the speakers good? Yes! Could you further expand by adding monitors? Yes!
‘Authorized velocity curves?’ Well, as CG puts it, ‘not a big deal’. Has Kawai updated these curves to better match Pianoteq’s current road map? No!

I think there are some apples and oranges in this paragraph. MIDI controllers are not suppose to have on-board sounds, built-in speakers, and audio interfaces. Why are these being discussed in the context of a MIDI controller at all? I can imagine that MIDI controllers likely do benefit for individual velocity curves for each key. (Not that I've ever used a MIDI controller myself before.)


In the context of ‘added’ value, I think it is relevant to mention these features.
These two boards are ‘controllers’ in the sense that they can control external virtual instruments, but the P-515 is also much more than that (added value).
Perhaps if we were talking of an ‘Arturia’ type controller the similarities would end at the sliders, knobs, modulation wheel, expression pedal input, etc... but the VPC-1 does not offer this kind of functionality, so in a way it’s just a keyboard meant to control virtual pianos, albeit a very good one at that, but as far as bang-for-buck goes, the P-515 takes the cake.

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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Granyala] #2860737
06/20/19 06:20 AM
06/20/19 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Granyala
Imho, the biggest difference is the pedal mechanism.

So confusing to feel the whole machinery behind the pedal and suddenly having to pay attention to how one releases it.
I have the tendency to just take my foot off rather abruptly, bet you all know how that sounds on a grand piano. laugh

On my digital pianos I smoothly lift the pedal up to the dampening point and stop there. Where that point is I figure out by ear. Works excellent on grand pianos without any noise.

I didn't have any access to the likes of a "Grand Feel Pedal System" to train this. I just used continuous pedals from the beginning and carefully watched my technique.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: CyberGene] #2860740
06/20/19 06:37 AM
06/20/19 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
P.S. Just remembered an escapement simulation was also added to the RM3 II which is just a rubber notch that goes in the way of the hammer. I have previously discussed how that’s wrong because it can slow down the otherwise free moving hammer.


To complicate matters... The RM3 on the MP10 and some others already had the escapement thingie before the RM3 II came out.

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2860743
06/20/19 06:51 AM
06/20/19 06:51 AM
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Before anybody starts accusing me of bashing Kawai, I'm not sure any other digital piano action fares better in terms of escapement. IMO, they shouldn't have emulated escapement at all because the escapement is really much more than just a notch. I don't think they will ever be able to emulate all the intricacies of a real piano action unless they make unnecessarily complex equivalent or just use a real action smile With all that in mind, digital pianos are expressive enough and are all quite similar to a large degree. Whether it's a folded action or long wooden stick as in the Kawai pianos, is to me the same though since they all lack escapement and are just pushing a hammer all the time, and the hammer is pushing back on the key all the time. That's it smile


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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2860749
06/20/19 07:33 AM
06/20/19 07:33 AM
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Cyber Gene: yes youre completely right but the thing is Chopin Acolyte wants to find a piano/action that is more similar to his grand piano for about 2000€. For me the VPC has one of the most realistic feels under my fingers. My experiences in testing out vartious DPs and GPs you can find here. Only in direct comparison you can feel the differences to make better decitions what you really prefer.

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Pete14] #2860750
06/20/19 07:35 AM
06/20/19 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
In the context of ‘added’ value, I think it is relevant to mention these features.
These two boards are ‘controllers’ in the sense that they can control external virtual instruments, but the P-515 is also much more than that (added value).
Perhaps if we were talking of an ‘Arturia’ type controller the similarities would end at the sliders, knobs, modulation wheel, expression pedal input, etc... but the VPC-1 does not offer this kind of functionality, so in a way it’s just a keyboard meant to control virtual pianos, albeit a very good one at that, but as far as bang-for-buck goes, the P-515 takes the cake.

The P-515 is also the superior controller with much more MIDI functionality including the option to freely map up to four pedals and sending all kinds of MIDI control messages.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: CyberGene] #2860751
06/20/19 07:39 AM
06/20/19 07:39 AM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Although you called the one in the VPC1 RM3 II, it’s mechanically the same action with added third sensor that facilitates repetition. Apart from that they are the same actions and feel the same when switched off. If you state they differ mechanically you need to show documents that confirm it because on pictures there aren’t differences and you have yourself said they are not mechanically different, apologies if I got that wrong.


As requested:

RM3 Grand - CA93/CA63/CA13
[Linked Image]

RM3 Grand II - CA15/CA17/VPC1
[Linked Image]

Like I say, similar but not the same.

Thanks for playing. wink

Originally Posted by CyberGene
P.S. Just remembered an escapement simulation was also added to the RM3 II...


Alas, your memory is unreliable - let-off simulation was a feature of the original RM3 Grand action.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2860757
06/20/19 07:49 AM
06/20/19 07:49 AM
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^ James, thanks, there are subtle differences indeed like the hammer shape, sensor PCB mounting frame, etc. I stand corrected. And indeed escapement was not added to RM3 II, it was there already in CA63, so at least that's not new which is in fact a point for me laugh I've never had the chance to compare CA63 directly to VPC1. However I remember that I didn't like the CA63 action and I didn't like the VPC1 action. That doesn't mean they are not different though, so I retract my comment about VPC1 action being bad because it's the same as in the CA63. It's bad bad only because it felt bad to me, but it could be a different "bad".

Last edited by CyberGene; 06/20/19 07:52 AM.

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Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2860765
06/20/19 08:13 AM
06/20/19 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte

Originally Posted by johnstaf

Why? What do you think the VPC-1 will offer you that the P-515 doesn't?


Well, when paired with a proper software, a sympathetic resonance, for once. Another thing, with VPC-1 I don't pay for speakers that suck, I pay just for the properly weighted keys and I buy speakers that would give me an eargasm. But their actions give really very similar feeling.

*IF* you find the actions comparably satisfying, then P515+speakers+pianoteq is still cheaper than VPC1+speakers+pianoteq. Just because you have the built-in sound and speakers doesn't mean you have to use them... though they still may be nice to have for occasional "just turn it on and play" moments. Also, a total savings of a few hundred dollars could buy you a bunch of $20-$40 piano lessons. Not that I don't think you're doing quite nicely without them. ;-)

I guess the other variable is that the VPC already has pianoteq-specific curves. You might have to put more effort into getting a comparably satisfying connection out of P515+Pianoteq.

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: JoeT] #2860770
06/20/19 08:24 AM
06/20/19 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Granyala
Imho, the biggest difference is the pedal mechanism.

So confusing to feel the whole machinery behind the pedal and suddenly having to pay attention to how one releases it.
I have the tendency to just take my foot off rather abruptly, bet you all know how that sounds on a grand piano. laugh

On my digital pianos I smoothly lift the pedal up to the dampening point and stop there. Where that point is I figure out by ear. Works excellent on grand pianos without any noise.

I didn't have any access to the likes of a "Grand Feel Pedal System" to train this. I just used continuous pedals from the beginning and carefully watched my technique.

Sounds complicated... I keep working on it. Meanwhile, everytime the damper goes >splat< I keep thinking "sorry!".

I need a VST which reproduces this behavior, at least on the acoustic side. laugh


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VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: anotherscott] #2860772
06/20/19 08:34 AM
06/20/19 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by anotherscott

I guess the other variable is that the VPC already has pianoteq-specific curves. You might have to put more effort into getting a comparably satisfying connection out of P515+Pianoteq.


There are curves for all the popular digitals on the Pianoteq website. I have never used them though.

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Granyala] #2860773
06/20/19 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Granyala

Sounds complicated... I keep working on it. Meanwhile, everytime the damper goes >splat< I keep thinking "sorry!".

I need a VST which reproduces this behavior, at least on the acoustic side. laugh

It isn't complicated at all. Just use a continuous damper pedal and move it less and slower. When re-pedaling stop at the point where notes actually get dampened and don't move the pedal all the way up. The less pedal movement you use, the less noise you produce.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: johnstaf] #2860775
06/20/19 08:52 AM
06/20/19 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
[There are curves for all the popular digitals on the Pianoteq website. I have never used them though.

A single individual's opinion of the best curve for that model. Only one individual's.

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2860780
06/20/19 08:55 AM
06/20/19 08:55 AM
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I'll let Pianoteq regulars to share their opinion as more trustworthy but in my limited experience every Pianoteq model has different touch response and I needed to change it in the Pianoteq interface in some cases. And I always used the default one in my ES7. And now the N1X although I've only tested it with only two of the models. Which is why I don't think this "Pianoteq tailored" curve is of any significance taking in mind most users will customize the curve in Pianoteq.


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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2860783
06/20/19 09:04 AM
06/20/19 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
Yes ok, but look at these photos on that thread: too much plastic for my taste (to say its a wooden key) also the black keys are entirely made out of plastic...(?) :
link

They feel like solid wood, because they are, instead of the usual hollow plastic. I don't feel bad about the hinge being a regulation-free design based on GH. The black keys are made of plastic, this is correct. But I don't know if it matters or if wooden black keys feel any different.

Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Okay, so the Yamaha P-515 arrived and I test-drove it. Before I share videos of me playing, a few points to share:

  • The action doesn't feel super realistic, but at least its heaviness is about the same as VPC1 (both are lighter than the Steinway I usually practice on)
  • I can't feel the escapement, the notch is very slight. Not that it matters that much when played normally, but with the notch comes the sound (the sound is triggered at the same point, useful to know). On the Steinway I usually practice on, the escapement is very pronounced, the key literally "gives in" at that point.
  • The action might be wooden, but when I look from the side (I press one key and look at the key next to it from the side), it looks like a wooden texture attached to the side. Not that it matters. Keys feel fine.
  • White keys are not super polished, so they don't slip. However, it's not the ivory feel.
  • Black keys simulate ebony feel, they are super grippy, very useful for fast passages on black keys.
  • I hate the Bosendorfer sample. Muddy, I never know what it tries to tell me. Like, when I play a real piano, or Yamaha CFX sample, the response is totally standard, "give it X much force and you get Y much sound". Not with the Bosendorfer though, what a terrible sample.
  • I like other sounds, like strings and harpsichord and also blending!
  • I didn't find the chicken sound ?!? frown
  • Not sure about the length of the key, it does feel heavier when I go closer to the fallboard.
  • All in all, it's not terrible to play, of course it doesn't feel like the real deal, but for that money, it is probably a better purchase than VPC1
  • Speakers are not great. They don't suck, but the sound is MUCH more clear through headphones. But I can't expect much at this price point ($1500). However, with VPC1 (or other piano controller) it's ME who gets to choose the speakers, instead of being forced to stick with the pair I don't quite like.
  • No sympathetic resonance. Push down one key without sounding that note and then press related note (e.g. octave higher, or any other partial that's not too high)...very very weak effect, even when I maxxed out resonance in settings. This thing works much better on real pianos (and hate to say it, but it works in Pianoteq, now don't kill me for saying that!)


Now, just a couple of days ago I recorded myself playing The Military Polonaise by Chopin on the Steinway, so I thought that I might record the same piece on Yamaha. Let's hear it:


For reference, played on Steinway:


Another video, I'm just messing around with various pieces and sounds:



I'm not decided whether I'm going to keep it or return it and search further.


Great review and great playing! I wasn't able to play that fluently when I got my P-515. It took me quite a while to get used to the action.

Some notes:

The headphones output uses a different sample for the CFX sound, recorded with binaural microphones. Which is the main reason, why it sounds superior to the speakers. It took myself quite a while to get used to the Bösendorfer sample, it's very different from the default CFX, but it doesn't have the Binaural option. You need to disable it in the System menu to get the proper sound on the headphones.

Most people think about Yamaha's actions as "very heavy". It's interesting to see how different your experience is. The key length is digital piano standard (roughly 20 centimeters white key length to the pivot). Some high-end digitals (with Kawai Grand Feel 2 or Yamaha GrandTouch) have longer keys, most slabs have much shorter ones (especially Casio). Escapement in digital piano is fake, except for hybrid models from $7,500 up.

Slab speakers are big compromise, however many slabs sound much worse. But the table you placed it on doesn't help it, a proper stand is a must-have. There are also lots of EQ options and the option choose various IAC levels.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2860863
06/20/19 01:06 PM
06/20/19 01:06 PM
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Tallahassee, FL
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About Pianoteq: unfortunately, the "printer" cable (type B, "USB to host") did not work: when I connected it to my PC, nothing showed up in pianoteq as a source...not sure what more I should do to make it work.

It also has two cables that are marked midi in and midi out, it has a bigger end and I don't have that kind of cable to test it out...but those are usually for connecting other devices to the instrument, aren't they...

As I play on it today it kinda feels more real...I don't know, I'm so confused I'm not sure what feels reel and what does not anymore. I guess if I want to steer my decision towards returning it I will go to the music school and play some real pianos, if I want to keep it I'll stay away from real pianos.

About "real" digital actions: how real does NU1X feel?

Last edited by Chopin Acolyte; 06/20/19 01:07 PM.
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2860868
06/20/19 01:17 PM
06/20/19 01:17 PM
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Sofia, Bulgaria
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When you are plugging in USB audio and MIDI devices to the computer, you might have to restart the application, in this case Pianoteq, for it to be able to see the refreshed device status.

As to NU1X, I've owned ti briefly for about a month in February and created a humungous thread:
My NU1X review

I returned it because of two keys that were slightly louder than the rest as well as the infamous "loud note issue" which has been discussed to death but seems to be fixed by a very recent firmware update.

However it's LIGHT YEARS ahead as a touch response to anything else besides the AvantGrands and the NV10. You should definitely test it, it's a real upright action that feels great.

Last edited by CyberGene; 06/20/19 01:19 PM.

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Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2860869
06/20/19 01:26 PM
06/20/19 01:26 PM
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Ah, so in Pianoteq I can see "output" in which I can select "Line (digital piano)". This makes Pianoteq play sound from the DP's speakers (so when I click on keys in Pianoteq I hear it from the Yamaha speakers, rather than my screen speakers). However, when I play the keys on Yamaha, it still produces Yamaha's internal sounds...

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2860870
06/20/19 01:28 PM
06/20/19 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Ah, so in Pianoteq I can see "output" in which I can select "Line (digital piano)". This makes Pianoteq play sound from the DP's speakers (so when I click on keys in Pianoteq I hear it from the Yamaha speakers, rather than my screen speakers). However, when I play the keys on Yamaha, it still produces Yamaha's internal sounds...

Maybe it's time to have a look at the user manual? To play external instruments without mixing them with the internal sound, you have to turn off Local Control on any instrument.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2860871
06/20/19 01:30 PM
06/20/19 01:30 PM
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Sofia, Bulgaria
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Yeah, I mentioned that you have to turn local control off a few posts ago but you've missed it wink


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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
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