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Great playing! You seem in good control and have excellent technique for 10 years of playing without a teacher.
The best thing now is to try Pianoteq and decide if you like it. If you do, then you can think to eventually switch to a VPC1. Unfortunately no sampled piano can be tried without being bought so it’s risky. Wow, thank you, that's a great compliment! Yes, as soon as my roommate comes home I'll ask him to let me use his headphone jack and try it with pianoteq (my computer doesn't have the stereo jack, only the smaller 3.5mm), b/c my built-in screen speakers suck big time (there seems to be some offending resonance frequency somewhere in treble when the whole thing starts to pop violently, so it's not really for music, only for games and watching twosetviolin). Hi Chopin Acolyte,
Many thanks for your impressions. I completely agree about the sympathetic resonance issue. It is one of Yamaha’s weak points. I also agree that absolutely nothing beats the feel and organic expressive quality of a real grand. As for pianoteq, I really enjoy playing this software and there are many of us (possibly the silent majority) that feel the same. Having said that I’m aware it could be improved sound wise but in many ways it feels satisfying to play. And as Im sure you realise, knowone is going to attack you for pointing out one of pianoteq’s strengths.
Anyway, regarding sound, I am also having to explore the external speaker options. The internal speakers of my CVP709 sound great with other instrument voices but weirdly coloured and boxy with piano. Currently I’ve opted for a pair of iLoud Micro Monitors which are an amazingly good speaker for their small size. There are some excellent comparative videos on YouTube featuring iLoud and its eye opening how well it performs against much bigger powered monitors. The trouble is I’m always looking for perfection and my gaze is straying towards the expensive Kef LSX powered speakers Hmmmmm.
Anyway, good luck with your choices.
Paul
I was advised Klipsch speakers, that they are good and don't cost that much. Not sure though! I'm not even sure if the proper power (W) input combined with frequency range should be the main point I decide upon...
I should have been clearer. The P-515 is next to the bed in my bedroom, an acoustic upright would take the place of a credenza in the living room. The credenza contains mostly junk and my wife’s scarves. I live in a one bedroom apartment in New York City, every bit of storage is precious, it’s not going to be easy to convince my wife that we should get rid of the credenza and replace it with an upright.
I think it is weird that your cellist roommate doesn’t want a piano. No, a cello is not a quiet, subtle instrument. The other half of my living room is dominated by my high end stereo. I tricked an electrician working in the kitchen into thinking I was playing the cello in the living room, lol, like I’m Pablo Casals.
You have done amazingly well for teaching yourself. How did you do it? I started out teaching myself from Bartok’s Mikrokosmos but I am glad that I got a teacher because I also developed a number of terrible habits.
I am used to having a teacher to function as my mirror in order to reflect my mistakes and tell me how to fix them. I need a lot of work on my non-dominant left hand. It tends to tense up and look like a claw. My teacher is working with me a lot on how to physically move on the keyboard and how to press keys without jabbing them, kind of landing on them like how a bird lands.
He wants to play duets though. And thank you, I'm watching closely other pianists and also Paul Barton on youtube, he is great with his advice. He offers a lot of unique approach to playing. But there is also the reflective part you mentioned, I guess one has to listen closely to themselves playing, if that doesn't work, record the performance and listen to it (I discover a lot of rhythmic errors I didn't hear while playing)...in general, practicing with metronome helps a lot, too. Sometimes, a teacher could say one sentence that would save you weeks of pointless banging, because you can do it more effectively...sometimes, such advice that would work specifically for you lies somewhere on youtube/internet in general, sometimes not...also, I guess, not every teacher is good and knows how to assess a student and help them improve. Ppl who have a piano teacher, what's a good price in Florida? Is $20/half an hour too much (that'd be $40 per hour, or $30 per 45 minutes)? That's the price the local grad students of piano pedagogy offers to other students of the same college (even tho I'm not in music school)... I remember when I was 16, half a year of lessons (if I remember it was once a week, one hour, plus recitals, plus separate theory lessons) cost about 50 euro...that's very different from $40 an hour...Last time I checked, private teachers (that would come to your house) cost from about 8 euro to 20 euro an hour. All you need to use Pianoteq is a USB cable between your laptop and the P-515. The sound will be routed back to the P-515 and you’ll be able to listen to all of the audio through a 1/4†jack on the P-515. It’s slick. I use Pianoteq quite a bit. I just knew that the cellist wanted to play duets! It’s natural. I just thought of an angle that might convince my wife to let me get an upright. I’ll tell her my teacher says I should get a real piano in order to accelerate my progress. :-) My teacher calls every keyboard a gadget, that’s not a compliment, haha. The Twoset guys, lol. I spent ten years sawing away at the violin. I don’t miss that sound under my ear. I have spent the last ten years studying the classical guitar, yes, with a teacher. I agree with what you said about how teachers can save you time. I pay New York City prices for teachers, you don’t want to know. Your prices sound awesome to me, lol. One has to consider the quality and background of the teacher, of course. The good thing about paying a lot for something is that it helps motivate you to practice on a daily basis and it makes you take things seriously or you give up quickly.
Last edited by LarryK; 06/20/19 02:35 AM.
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That's great, that's something you actually have to pay extra in Kawai's pianos (think of CN-27 vs CN-37 or CA-48 vs CA-58, and something called "line in")! However, I don't have the square to USB cable...(looks like a printer cable). I looked online, the shop I bought Yamaha from sells it for 80 bucks 
I pay New York City prices for teachers, you don’t want to know. Your prices sound awesome to me, lol. One has to consider the quality and background of the teacher, of course. The good thing about paying a lot for something is that it helps motivate you to practice on a daily basis and it makes you take things seriously or you give up quickly.
I think a good teacher is like local grad students...an actual pianist, so he should be able to tell what works and what does not. Not sure though. Never considered not taking piano seriously, or giving up, when I don't have an instrument around I miss it a lot (when I first moved here I annoyed representatives of the university with emails about pianos, until I discovered the local practice rooms, open to every student). Never stopped playing ever since I started.
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A “printer†cable should usually cost $2-3.
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I can see I don't have the time to return it and buy VPC1 before the sale ends  I guess I'll test it more and decide in a week...
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I like the MP11SE much more then the VPC-1, action wise. After that the only thing that gets you closer is the Avant Grand or Kawai hybrid. I prefer the Yamaha . The new N1X is very nice. For the way you play and being used to playing on a quality piano, I can't see you being satisfied with anything less then the Avant Grand or Novus. 
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For the way you play and being used to playing on a quality piano, I can't see you being satisfied with anything less then the Avant Grand or Novus. Absolutely agree  BTW, earlier in this thread it was discussed how novice piano players can benefit from listening to experienced pianists when doing their choice. I think Chopin Acolyte is such a good pianist that he doesn’t need that at all and has to make his choice entirely on his own.
Last edited by CyberGene; 06/20/19 03:33 AM.
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I like the MP11SE much more then the VPC-1, action wise. After that the only thing that gets you closer is the Avant Grand or Kawai hybrid. I prefer the Yamaha . The new N1X is very nice. For the way you play and being used to playing on a quality piano, I can't see you being satisfied with anything less then the Avant Grand or Novus. The last bit is awfully similar to how the Kawai dealer tried to persuade me to buy $6000 CP2..."come on, I know you're gonna outgrow CN-27, anything less than CP2 is not going to satisfy you"  CP2 is an outdated model with GF action (also feels very light) I actually don't have that much money  I know it must feel amazing but no dealers actually even carry those models (just to try it and drool a little all over it). I heard that even NU1X feels nice.
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I can see I don't have the time to return it and buy VPC1 before the sale ends I guess I'll test it more and decide in a week... why don´t you go to your friend (who has the VPC) with the 515 and compare it directly (midi connected to the 515). Then you can decide what action is the best for you. After that you can think about sounds speakers etc. There are so many possibilities but the action (for me) is the most essential tool in the setup...
Kawai VPC1, Nektar Impact GXP61+88
Past: "Fazer" acoustic piano, Yamaha P120, Roland JV90, M-audio and Novation Midi Keyboards
other instruments: electric and acoustic violins, Wal custom 4 string e-bass, Sire V7 fretless e-bass, Musser vibraphone
Software: Logic Pro
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I bet on a virtual beer that P515 compared side by side to a VPC (as controllers to whatever it is: Pianoteq or sample based VST), the P515 is the better keyboard But I'd bet only a beer and only a virtual one I'm not sure one is definitely better than the other and as a matter of fact I don't like either. The VPC feels somehow weird (I owned a CA63 with that keyboard) and mechanically just isn't as much realistic as the presence of single piece wooden key sticks suggests. And the P515 with the initial friction/resistance is also kind of weird. But anyway, I'd be interested in hearing the comparison results.
Last edited by CyberGene; 06/20/19 05:00 AM.
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The VPC feels somehow weird (I owned a CA63 with that keyboard) and mechanically just isn't as much realistic as the presence of single piece wooden key sticks suggests. And the P515 with the initial friction/resistance is also kind of weird. I wouldn't even presume to argue keyboard feel with someone who lists 10 keyboards (11 with your DIY) in their forum signature! 
![[Linked Image]](https://forum.pianoworld.com//gallery/42/medium/12282.png) across the stone, deathless piano performances "Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano "Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person "Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
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I bet on a virtual beer that P515 compared side by side to a VPC (as controllers to whatever it is: Pianoteq or sample based VST), the P515 is the better keyboard I don't bet, nor do I drink, however given the choice between the two, I would personally opt for a VPC1 over the P-515. Don't get me wrong, I believe the P-515 is an excellent standalone portable piano. However, if my focus is on piano action realism for partnering with virtual piano software, I will chose the product that is developed exclusively for that purpose. I owned a CA63 with that keyboard... No, you owned a CA63 with the "RM3 Grand" keyboard action. Similar, but not the same. Cheers, James x
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I owned a CA63 with that keyboard... No, you owned a CA63 with the "RM3 Grand" keyboard action. Similar, but not the same. I knew that you were gonna answer exactly that and I’m prepared with my reply Although you called the one in the VPC1 RM3 II, it’s mechanically the same action with added third sensor that facilitates repetition. Apart from that they are the same actions and feel the same when switched off. If you state they differ mechanically you need to show documents that confirm it because on pictures there aren’t differences and you have yourself said they are not mechanically different, apologies if I got that wrong.
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P.S. Just remembered an escapement simulation was also added to the RM3 II which is just a rubber notch that goes in the way of the hammer. I have previously discussed how that’s wrong because it can slow down the otherwise free moving hammer.
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P.S. Just remembered an escapement simulation was also added to the RM3 II which is just a rubber notch that goes in the way of the hammer. I have previously discussed how that’s wrong because it can slow down the otherwise free moving hammer. More correct simulation would go in the way of the key itself?
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This notion that the VPC-1 is the de facto controller is somewhat outdated. Yes, it was designed exclusively for controlling virtual pianos but that was eons ago, and things have moved forward whilst the VPC lags behind. Still a good controller but not necessarily the best; especially as it relates to the P-515 which gives you so much more in terms of very sought after and useful features: on-board sounds, built-in speakers, audio interface, available -matching- stand/pedal-board, etc.... Are the speakers good? Yes! Could you further expand by adding monitors? Yes!
‘Authorized velocity curves?’ Well, as CG puts it, ‘not a big deal’. Has Kawai updated these curves to better match Pianoteq’s current road map? No!
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Still a good controller but not necessarily the best; especially as it relates to the P-515 which gives you so much more in terms of very sought after and useful features: on-board sounds, built-in speakers, audio interface, available -matching- stand/pedal-board, etc.... Are the speakers good? Yes! Could you further expand by adding monitors? Yes!
‘Authorized velocity curves?’ Well, as CG puts it, ‘not a big deal’. Has Kawai updated these curves to better match Pianoteq’s current road map? No! I think there are some apples and oranges in this paragraph. MIDI controllers are not suppose to have on-board sounds, built-in speakers, and audio interfaces. Why are these being discussed in the context of a MIDI controller at all? I can imagine that MIDI controllers likely do benefit for individual velocity curves for each key. (Not that I've ever used a MIDI controller myself before.)
across the stone, deathless piano performances "Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano "Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person "Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
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P.S. Just remembered an escapement simulation was also added to the RM3 II which is just a rubber notch that goes in the way of the hammer. I have previously discussed how that’s wrong because it can slow down the otherwise free moving hammer. More correct simulation would go in the way of the key itself? Unfortunately it's not as simple as that. On a real grand piano action the escapement is where the hammer detaches from the action, i.e. the jack and underlying whippen, capstan, key. From that moment on the hammer moves freely the remaining 1-2mm to the string and is not hampered. But you can actually tap the key slightly and it will create the proper inertia in the hammer much before that and the hammer will keep moving freely to hit the string and no escapement will be used at all. So, it's not either the hammer or the key, the escapement is a particular solution to a problem whereas on digital piano keyboards that problem doesn't exist and so they decided to emulate only the feel but they did it wrongly I'm not sure about other escapement simulation but Kawai put the rubber notch in the way of the hammer on RM and GF actions. You can tap the key and it will throw the hammer but that hammer will need to go past the rubber notch which will slow it down before hitting the sensors. Furthermore, on a grand piano action, when you press the key fully and the escapement is engaged, the hammer will fall back and be caught by the backcheck usually 8mm from the string. When you release the key, what pushes the key for a brief moment is not the weight of the hammer but instead the double repetition lever spring until the jack is reengaged, i.e. you "activate" the escapement. On digital pianos the hammer will be pushing with its weight on the key constantly and so that feel of mechanical stuff going under the key that leads to varying weight and resistance is lost. The escapement simulation in digital pianos is simply a BS that's there for no particular reason besides stating that they emulated something. But they won't tell you they forgot to emulate everything else around escapement and that the escapement simulation goes in the way of the hammer.
Last edited by CyberGene; 06/20/19 05:58 AM.
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Imho, the biggest difference is the pedal mechanism. So confusing to feel the whole machinery behind the pedal and suddenly having to pay attention to how one releases it. I have the tendency to just take my foot off rather abruptly, bet you all know how that sounds on a grand piano.
The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 7 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
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Great explanation CyberGene, kinda makes me think Casio made the best choice by not emulating letoff in their GP line, instead of emulating it in a wrong way like the other brands.
The right choice, at risk of losing sales because of offering no emulated letoff so it looks worse on paper.
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