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Re: Inefficient learning, advice needed [Re: Moo :)] #2859616
06/17/19 02:45 PM
06/17/19 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
Efficiency is overrated. How to progress is with a decent teacher and regular practice time. It is normally that simple. It is a very slow process to play piano. Most of us bumble along. My on belief is that people that progress faster normally just practice more. I tend to ignore comments on how great the difference between efficient and inefficient practice is. Most pieces and problems are solved with Time. Good luck !

Moo, the videos on your channel suggest that you are getting/have gotten decent teaching and/or that you are working in that manner. I think maybe we should define "efficient" - you are probably dismiss something that I would dismiss too. Maybe by exploring the other side.

My early experiences with the first time I took lessons over several years (not piano) say that "practising more" and "bumbling along" is not enough. Back then I aimed for 3 hours/day, every day, and rarely went below 1 hour. I "went through" grade levels quickly for the first year and then hit a brick wall that sent me reeling backward, even losing a lot of the skills that I (thought I) had. It is possible to try and try, not go forward, and even go backward. It can be close to devastating, and is definitely frustrating. It led me to seek, and then find, things that seem to be given the label of "efficient practising" - but not any dogma, if those are out there.

It's not dogma. It's not some formula you must follow or you're doomed. Experimenting and moments of letting go are part of it. But there is "something" to the kinds of things that get put under "efficient practising". I'm actually imagining that you are doing some of them, because the quality of your playing and progress suggest it. smile

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Re: Inefficient learning, advice needed [Re: Cheshire Chris] #2859622
06/17/19 03:26 PM
06/17/19 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Cheshire Chris
Originally Posted by LarryK
A teacher acts as a mirror, showing you how you play. It’s difficult to have this same visibility into your own playing when you’re self taught. I often go to lessons thinking I have nailed a piece and I am shown five different things that I need to improve. My lessons are always a revelation to me, I never would have come up with areas where I need to improve on my own.


My experience is the same. Playing the piano involves a high proportion of technique that you just can't learn from a book or video. Without a teacher, bad habits will become ingrained and ever more difficult to put right. I'd strongly urge Tom to find a teacher.

Anyone who lives in a city which has public pianos will have observed lots of people playing (or attempting to play) them, some with somewhat unusual piano techniques.

I've seen many (- one of the busiest underground stations in London has a public piano, which is in almost constant use), and it's not difficult to see the difference between the self-taught and those who have teachers (or once had teachers), even without listening to the sounds they make.

Many adult learners have never observed and listened to concert pianists (or even just good pianists) playing live in front of them, and have no idea of the tonal nuances, dynamics and range of articulation that are possible when allied to good musicianship, and the keyboard technique & control that enable them. If they have, they'd soon realize that it's simply impossible to get anywhere near that kind of standard from watching YT videos and self-learning.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Inefficient learning, advice needed [Re: keystring] #2859849
06/18/19 04:45 AM
06/18/19 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Moo :)
Efficiency is overrated. How to progress is with a decent teacher and regular practice time. It is normally that simple. It is a very slow process to play piano. Most of us bumble along. My on belief is that people that progress faster normally just practice more. I tend to ignore comments on how great the difference between efficient and inefficient practice is. Most pieces and problems are solved with Time. Good luck !

Moo, the videos on your channel suggest that you are getting/have gotten decent teaching and/or that you are working in that manner. I think maybe we should define "efficient" - you are probably dismiss something that I would dismiss too. Maybe by exploring the other side.

My early experiences with the first time I took lessons over several years (not piano) say that "practising more" and "bumbling along" is not enough. Back then I aimed for 3 hours/day, every day, and rarely went below 1 hour. I "went through" grade levels quickly for the first year and then hit a brick wall that sent me reeling backward, even losing a lot of the skills that I (thought I) had. It is possible to try and try, not go forward, and even go backward. It can be close to devastating, and is definitely frustrating. It led me to seek, and then find, things that seem to be given the label of "efficient practising" - but not any dogma, if those are out there.

It's not dogma. It's not some formula you must follow or you're doomed. Experimenting and moments of letting go are part of it. But there is "something" to the kinds of things that get put under "efficient practising". I'm actually imagining that you are doing some of them, because the quality of your playing and progress suggest it. smile


None of my teachers in the past talked to me about efficient practicing. It is something I've heard about only online. I have found that people online all have different opinions so what constitutes efficiency. It is a broad concept and it is very subjective. I think the idea that you are practising very wrong and somehow a change to the practice is revolutionary and you progress very fast is a bit of a myth. I think the generic advice of not playing mistakes over and over and trying to play slowly is all good advice. It is not what I would call efficient practice and I think most people will learn this with a teacher relatively early. I often hear people talk as you have of playing for a long time and not progressing and then suddenly playing less and progressing very fast with a magic method and they are always searching for a quick fix. I do not know what it is like for adult beginners but my personal experience is there is no quick fix. Most problems in piano are very hard and slow to get around. As I said, bumbling along is more my experience and it comes together. Most problems I have found just get better with time. I dont always know how. Perhaps a year or two later it comes together.

So I basically think the main problem was not having a teacher rather than inefficient practice. I think without a teacher you have no feedback so you learn almost nothing. I know am a dinosaur in my view here. Also Mr Ben - Elegie, have you played it ? I've had lessons for nearly 5 years as an adult and as a kid for almost 10 years . I was thinking of playing it again for piano meetup as I'm playing another one from this opus and I thought it would be a good combo. But it is not at a performance standard. I would argue perhaps it is almost a diploma type level piece and your 5-10 scale perhaps is ambitious. You should have said at least so many years :0. It is a good example however of time. I found the piece much easier now than when I first learnt it last year even thought I have not practiced it. I think it is because I've played other pieces by the composer. This is what I found with piano to be honest, most things are doable in time.

Good luck Mr Tom !

Re: Inefficient learning, advice needed [Re: Moo :)] #2859859
06/18/19 05:27 AM
06/18/19 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Moo:)[/quote
None of my teachers in the past talked to me about efficient practicing.

A teacher who guides properly does not talk about efficient practising - he gives the things that will make it happen. In other words, ordinary, logical things that you will end up taking for granted because it does, in fact, make sense.
Quote
I think the idea that you are practising very wrong and somehow a change to the practice is revolutionary and you progress very fast is a bit of a myth.

I hope that you don't think that this is what I am saying. However, if you have been mistaught you can indeed go in circles. If you have indeed gotten into trouble, so that you land in Remediation Land, getting out of those holes is a slow process - much slower than starting properly in the first place. If it seems a myth that relearning will turn things around, then you should talk to teachers who get transfer students and have to do that job.
Quote
I think the generic advice of not playing mistakes over and over and trying to play slowly is all good advice.

- and chunking pieces, working on small sections
- and learning to read
- and acquiring the technique you need
- and....
Quote
..... and I think most people will learn this with a teacher relatively early.

With a good teacher yes. With poor teaching, the teaching itself will get a student into trouble. There are various ways. Rush a student up grade levels. Assigning pieces without teaching any technique or approaches. Or even teaching physical things that cripple the student.
Quote
I often hear people talk as you have of playing for a long time and not progressing and then suddenly playing less and progressing very fast with a magic method and they are always searching for a quick fix.

That is NOT what I am talking about. If you're doing wrong things, so that you are constantly stuck, or you don't know how to do or approach things, then when you stop doing those wrong things, you will stop being stuck. That has been my experience, and that is just common sense. not magic.
Quote
So I basically think the main problem was not having a teacher rather than inefficient practice. I think without a teacher you have no feedback so you learn almost nothing.

The instrument where I got in trouble, I had a teacher. I did every single thing I was told, exactly how I was told. I swallowed my doubts - for example that we seemed to be going so darned fast - and did what I was told. I have gone back now, and I already can do things I couldn't do then - by going to the very beginning. I did not touch that instrument even once, until I had my first lesson, because I wanted to learn properly.

Piano, yes, as a child I did that on my own. Here it's a mixed bag, because I did gain quite a few things on my own - but other things have had to be undone. I DO have a good teacher. When we met, after the other experience, I was looking for getting the tools, aiming for the tools, and learning how to work and how to learn. That is all called "efficient practice". Maybe it should be called decent and normal learning. I'm not talking about the magical stuff.

Re: Inefficient learning, advice needed [Re: Tom97] #2859862
06/18/19 05:34 AM
06/18/19 05:34 AM
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Quote
I've had lessons for nearly 5 years as an adult and as a kid for almost 10 years .

Those ten years were probably with decent teaching.
Quote
As I said, bumbling along is more my experience and it comes together.

When you have foundations, your bumbling rises out of those foundations. If that is out of whack, everything goes awry. Foundations can be as simple as being at a good distance and height to the piano so that you use your body naturally; knowing how to find a note that is on the page, on the piano. The first things a child learns are absorbed unconsciously. I hold a pencil in a way that makes it easy to write words and draw drawings. I have no memory of getting that skill. An illiterate adult who has never held a pencil may do all kinds of odd things. I can bumble about with my pencil, when doing drawings. I am probably thinking much more basically and simply than you are imagining.

Re: Inefficient learning, advice needed [Re: Tom97] #2859886
06/18/19 07:24 AM
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I don’t disagree with what what u say . I would call having a teacher and basic a structure more of an essential learning method. No one disagrees with that. Practicing efficiency my understanding is less clear. I see it more as others telling normally less experience people how and what they should be doing. many advice what they should do and buy is given and they use the beginner struggle as evidence that their method does not work. I try not to advise much and would leave this to the new teacher. My experience has taught me to listen to my teacher and pay little attention online. My own practice contains a lot of inefficiency. I love picking up random pieces and having a try. Great way to learn. Much more fun than working on lesson pieces which get dull and can help prevent burnout wand giving up . I think not giving up is the key ingredient for piano. And stubbornness. Haha 👍.

Last edited by Moo :); 06/18/19 07:27 AM.
Re: Inefficient learning, advice needed [Re: Moo :)] #2860132
06/18/19 05:29 PM
06/18/19 05:29 PM
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Moo, you bring up some good points, and I consider this an important conversation. You have brought out some angles that I had not thought about.
Originally Posted by Moo :)
I don’t disagree with what what u say . I would call having a teacher and basic a structure more of an essential learning method. No one disagrees with that. Practicing efficiency my understanding is less clear. .....

We got stuck on this word "efficient" and I am starting to see why. For example:
Quote
I see it more as others telling normally less experience people how and what they should be doing. many advice what they should do and buy is given and they use the beginner struggle as evidence that their method does not work. I try not to advise much and would leave this to the new teacher.

I have read this forum as you have. I have seen posts where assumptions are made about what a novice must be doing wrong, and the novice is then told to use this method or program, or buy that book. And that may be given the name "efficient". Ok, I'm with you. That is wrong.

Let me try to describe some things that can happen, which would be the opposite of what is wanted.

- Student (novice) starts with teacher, who gives the student "interesting music", shows the student how awesome it sounds, and then tells the student to go home, "practise" it, and nothing else. Maybe with a CD to imitate. No beginning reading skills, nothing about sitting at the piano; nothing about working in sections (or even recognizing one). Student muscles his way through the music, start to finish, over and over, for hours every day. Comes back with a semblance. Teacher gives another more difficult piece - rinse lather repeat. Student ends up in pain; or confusion; or just goes in circles.

Let's just take one aspect. After 3 years, the student is still counting up notes or memorizing; getting at any new piece takes forever. Supposing that someone teaches the student how to read music and find patterns. Then this one aspect will change. If you can read, you can get at music faster / or don't depend on recordings. It is not a magical "suddenly in a twinkle things are amazing". It's just that the scenario I described is really IN-efficient.

- student goes with what seems to be a "structured program" - say ABRSM, AMEB, RCM - but it is taught in a shallow way. You can write in finger numbers, choreograph the student, give the student only 3 pieces per grade level, so that exams are passed. Will this student learn to ever tackle anything on his own? The teachers often complain about "transfer wrecks" and the painful work of turning around that kind of mess.

It is not that effective (i.e. non-effective) learning is a miracle thing. It is that poor approaches and poor teaching create a mess, and if you start sorting out the mess, so that you are not in a mess, things go better than when you are in a mess. If you have not experienced "messes", this is hard to imagine.

Quote
My experience has taught me to listen to my teacher and pay little attention online.

You have a teacher worth listening to, I bet, and you seem to have been started right with teachers who were worth listening to. Unfortunately there is a lot of misteaching out there, and a student can go in circles for years. When you do have a reliable teacher, stick to that teacher like a burr. In fact, that teacher will want to foster your independence and un-stick that burr eventually. wink

Re: Inefficient learning, advice needed [Re: Tom97] #2860547
06/19/19 05:03 PM
06/19/19 05:03 PM
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Quote
Efficiency is overrated. How to progress is with a decent teacher and regular practice time. It is normally that simple. It is a very slow process to play piano. Most of us bumble along. My on belief is that people that progress faster normally just practice more. I tend to ignore comments on how great the difference between efficient and inefficient practice is. Most pieces and problems are solved with Time. Good luck !

You must be kidding us, Moo. There are tons of literature written by world's best pianists and pedagogues about practicing efficiently. They've spent their lives in constant search of best learning and practicing methods, principles and exercises. And not in vain, because the overall pianistic level in good music schools grows from decade to decade, and it's mainly because of superior practice methods.

Re: Inefficient learning, advice needed [Re: Iaroslav Vasiliev] #2860554
06/19/19 05:21 PM
06/19/19 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Quote
Efficiency is overrated. How to progress is with a decent teacher and regular practice time. It is normally that simple. It is a very slow process to play piano. Most of us bumble along. My on belief is that people that progress faster normally just practice more. I tend to ignore comments on how great the difference between efficient and inefficient practice is. Most pieces and problems are solved with Time. Good luck !

You must be kidding us, Moo. There are tons of literature written by world's best pianists and pedagogues about practicing efficiently......
Moo and I have just had a conversation here in this thread about this, subsequent to what you have quoted. He has shared what he understands the term to mean, what he has seen in discussions around it. And for those things, I agree. It was an interesting conversation, and worth catching up on. wink

Re: Inefficient learning, advice needed [Re: Iaroslav Vasiliev] #2860557
06/19/19 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
There are tons of literature written by world's best pianists and pedagogues about practicing efficiently. They've spent their lives in constant search of best learning and practicing methods, principles and exercises. And not in vain, because the overall pianistic level in good music schools grows from decade to decade, and it's mainly because of superior practice methods.

This is a very good point. There is something improving - I don't think humans are evolving that quickly.


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Re: Inefficient learning, advice needed [Re: Tom97] #2860561
06/19/19 05:46 PM
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I think there is a difference between teaching and practice. Teaching to me is vital. I think I need more teaching as I progress. Efficient practice to me suggests how you are supposed to practice. I personally have not found how I practice makes much difference at all. The difference between efficient and inefficient practice I don’t understand really. The main difference for me is time spent practicing. Progress is generally slow anyhow. I’m not very perspective for any quick fix solutions anymore. Perhaps an adult beginner would different experiences.

Re: Inefficient learning, advice needed [Re: Moo :)] #2860562
06/19/19 05:51 PM
06/19/19 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
I think there is a difference between teaching and practice. Teaching to me is vital. I think I need more teaching as I progress. Efficient practice to me suggests how you are supposed to practice. I personally have not found how I practice makes much difference at all. The difference between efficient and inefficient practice I don’t understand really. The main difference for me is time spent practicing. Progress is generally slow anyhow. I’m not very perspective for any quick fix solutions anymore. Perhaps an adult beginner would different experiences.

Yet the fact that younger people are able to play more technically challenging pieces than ever before (there is a 16yo who plays Rach 1, 2, & 3) suggests otherwise. Something is different. If it's not practicing, it's something else that has changed over time. It's certainly not the pianos themselves. And it's not the amount of time spent practicing. If anything, young people today have less time than in decades past.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Inefficient learning, advice needed [Re: Moo :)] #2860564
06/19/19 05:57 PM
06/19/19 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
I think there is a difference between teaching and practice. Teaching to me is vital. I think I need more teaching as I progress.

Part of teaching is teaching how to practise, whether it is done directly or indirectly. Learning involves both the lesson taught, and the practising. If you have one lesson/week, then 6/7 learning days are in the practice department.
Quote
I personally have not found how I practice makes much difference at all.

I personally have.
Quote
The difference between efficient and inefficient practice I don’t understand really.

I have tried several times to give examples. At least I think I did.
Quote
I’m not very perspective for any quick fix solutions anymore.

You have mentioned this "quick fix" idea before and I have tried to explain that it has nothing to do with quick fixes. Did none of that make sense?

Sorry for being stubborn about this, but it's a big deal for me, because of the things I experienced in my first years. I don't want anyone else to go through anything like that. The alternative is better.

Practice and teaching interrelate.

Re: Inefficient learning, advice needed [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2860576
06/19/19 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Yet the fact that younger people are able to play more technically challenging pieces than ever before (there is a 16yo who plays Rach 1, 2, & 3) suggests otherwise. Something is different. If it's not practicing, it's something else that has changed over time. It's certainly not the pianos themselves. And it's not the amount of time spent practicing. If anything, young people today have less time than in decades past.

We forget that these days, there is more time for kids to dedicate to practicing (no need to travel or earn their living, unlike little Wolfie, or even George) and more chance of exposure, so we get a completely skewed picture when making comparisons. And parents know there're quick bucks to be made......

Where - in the past 100 years - have we had a ten-year-old kid like little Camille who, after a demanding concert that included a Mozart and a Beethoven concerto in a prestigious venue, was able to give an encore of a Beethoven sonata - any sonata - of the audience's choosing?

Much bigger population in the world, much greater exposure, plenty of great teachers (especially ex-Soviet) everywhere, more money to go round. No, nothing to do with "method practising", or whatever you want to call it.

As the Tchaikovsky Competition is currently underway, I can recall an ex-winner in my high school - already performing Liszt's Dante and B minor sonatas and M's Pictures at fifteen - who spent all his free time practicing. The rest of us would be kicking a football around, or having to cope with "prep" (me), and restricted to no more than two hours at the piano on weekdays (the time between finishing school and high tea in my case).

Practice makes perfect.......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Inefficient learning, advice needed [Re: Tom97] #2860583
06/19/19 06:38 PM
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What exactly is this very effective practice then ? How is it different from ineffective practice ? All practice to me is practice. I don’t separate. Time practising to me is much more important than how. I spent very little time thinking about how. I notice some people online spend a lot of time worrying about how. I have see elaborate practice rituals, diaries and schedules!

Re: Inefficient learning, advice needed [Re: Moo :)] #2860589
06/19/19 07:14 PM
06/19/19 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
What exactly is this very effective practice then ? How is it different from ineffective practice ?


Ok, I'll let you discern which of these are effective and ineffective. Listed at random.

- Get a piece of music. Start on m. 1, bumble through it (didn't learn to read, really), get to m. 9. Stumbles at m. 9. Goes back to m. 1, bumbles through, stumbles at m. 9. Goes back to m. 1, which starts sounding good because it's getting memorized, stumbles at m. 9. After a few days of this, might bet up to m. 15, sounding weaker and weaker.

- Get a piece of music. Divide into sections. Find hard parts. Find out why they are hard. Decide to work on those first. Figure out how to work on those first. m. 9 has a particular difficulty. At some point goes from m. 1 - 9 and past m. 9, because m. 9 is not a stumbling block - it's been worked out.

Actually,I don't want to lose too much time. Maybe some other members can continue this list of effective and ineffective

Quote
I have see elaborate practice rituals, diaries and schedules!

That can be OCD, or still finding one's way. This in itself could be considered ineffective practice, if it takes away from the practising. I am NOT talking about that.

Re: Inefficient learning, advice needed [Re: Moo :)] #2860593
06/19/19 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
What exactly is this very effective practice then ? How is it different from ineffective practice ? All practice to me is practice. I don’t separate. Time practising to me is much more important than how. I spent very little time thinking about how. I notice some people online spend a lot of time worrying about how. I have see elaborate practice rituals, diaries and schedules!


I would think it is quite simple: Efficient practice means that you get maximum results for minimum work. Some of the principles of efficient practice are quite universal, but some depend on our personal strenghts and weaknesses and the way we learn the fastest. One example of inefficient practice is to just try the same thing over and over and wishing you will some day get it right. You can spend hours practicing something without ever becoming any better. Time spent means little then.

Re: Inefficient learning, advice needed [Re: Tom97] #2860627
06/19/19 09:07 PM
06/19/19 09:07 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 280
New York
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My long suffering teacher and I spend a lot of time talking about efficient practicing and learning; we are both interested in the subject, and also I just don't have a ton of time relative to what I would like to be able to do. I am a little embarrassed to admit to just how much time we spend time in lessons with me proving, under direction, why "the method" works better than whatever I had been doing on my own during the week. But at least I'm getting better at it.

Alot of the tools have already been described in this thread. Here are some of my favorites (aka the ones I seem to be able to remember to do) Find the glitch - one or two measures. Run through it slowly, fast, in tempo and not in tempo, help the fingers get used to a move that feels odd by watching them move to the keys - for a section where that is the appropriate tool to use. I'm trying to get better at using the method the first time, rather than waiting to be reminded during the lesson. Also trying to get better at remembering more than one approach, and using the right tool for the right problem. And building a background vocabulary - the scales and arpeggios which I should be doing more of.....not because they are so great by themselves, but they're part of the vocabulary, and it reduces stress when you can apply them in a piece. Same with music theory, which someone here recently described as a way to reduce the mental load in the middle of a piece. And selected memorizing, which helps while you're playing, but also while you're sitting on the train and seeing if you can choreograph your fingers through a particular passage.

I also recognized myself in the OPs description of "I just keep making mistakes" - I spent probably 10 years or more trying to teach myself, based on 1 1/2 years of lessons when I was a teenager - and just couldn't get past the mental blocks. "I know this is a 5th in the left hand coming up.......ooops, did't play it......try again, too fast, not enough ground work on what it feels like.........and so on and so forth. I might do a better job now, after several years of being reminded about what does and does not work in learning/practice/whatever you want to call it. However, I think I'd rather continue on with my teacher, since I'm making a lot more progress with the instruction than I ever did without it.


Mason & Hamlin A ('97)
Re: Inefficient learning, advice needed [Re: outo] #2860700
06/20/19 02:53 AM
06/20/19 02:53 AM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 138
Long Island, NY
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Originally Posted by outo
Originally Posted by Moo :)
What exactly is this very effective practice then ? How is it different from ineffective practice ? All practice to me is practice. I don’t separate. Time practising to me is much more important than how. I spent very little time thinking about how. I notice some people online spend a lot of time worrying about how. I have see elaborate practice rituals, diaries and schedules!


I would think it is quite simple: Efficient practice means that you get maximum results for minimum work. Some of the principles of efficient practice are quite universal, but some depend on our personal strenghts and weaknesses and the way we learn the fastest. One example of inefficient practice is to just try the same thing over and over and wishing you will some day get it right. You can spend hours practicing something without ever becoming any better. Time spent means little then.




This. Exactly. There is a big difference IMHO between effective and efficient practice vs ineffective and mindless/unfocused practice when learning a piece, when perfecting and polishing it, and when preparing it for recitals(memorization).

I tackled a Bach Prelude and Fugue by learning it in small chunks during lunchtime. Evening practice was reserved for cementing the trouble spots from lunchtime practice. By week 2, I had the first page down cold. Total hours spent was maybe 25 over 2 weeks (2 hrs daily practice, 1 hr lunch, 1 hr after dinner). My practice was focused. Targeted directly at problem measures and areas my teacher said needed work. I made sure to have a goal for the practice session like “repeat these 3 chords in staccato and legato style 5 times each” for 2 days in a row to cement the sound and muscle memory.

Ineffective or inefficient practice is playing just to say you played the piece and having your brain go on auto pilot.

I also find that practicing with the idea that your teacher is listening to you in another room is a good trick as is talking to yourself sometimes. The point is to be engaged and active when you are sitting at the piano because thats the type of mental excitement you will experience in a performance setting - in addition to the extra layer of stage nerves.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Completed:
1. Schubert -MM 3 and Impromptu 90/1
2. Bach- Prelude & Fugue (F min - WTC 2)
Working on:
1. Brahms Intermezzo Op 118 #2
2. Beethoven Sonata Op 2 # 1
*************************************
My YouTube Channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNj0Yha5exOWuJMTezV3t8Q
Re: Inefficient learning, advice needed [Re: keystring] #2860716
06/20/19 05:14 AM
06/20/19 05:14 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 458
Just outside London UK
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Just outside London UK
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Moo :)
What exactly is this very effective practice then ? How is it different from ineffective practice ?


Ok, I'll let you discern which of these are effective and ineffective. Listed at random.

- Get a piece of music. Start on m. 1, bumble through it (didn't learn to read, really), get to m. 9. Stumbles at m. 9. Goes back to m. 1, bumbles through, stumbles at m. 9. Goes back to m. 1, which starts sounding good because it's getting memorized, stumbles at m. 9. After a few days of this, might bet up to m. 15, sounding weaker and weaker.

- Get a piece of music. Divide into sections. Find hard parts. Find out why they are hard. Decide to work on those first. Figure out how to work on those first. m. 9 has a particular difficulty. At some point goes from m. 1 - 9 and past m. 9, because m. 9 is not a stumbling block - it's been worked out.



The second example was pretty much what I was meaning when I first introduced the term at the beginning of this thread. I've watched the discussion go in circles since then, but Keystring's example nails exactly what I meant.

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