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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Chopin Acolyte #2860308 06/19/19 06:02 AM
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I suspect we all agree that keeping the debate on target, however fierce, and not fall into the trap of insulting others, is the right approach. But maybe we should also all let this thread remind us that it is a trap which is easy to fall into by a gradual heating up of arguments.


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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Chopin Acolyte #2860309 06/19/19 06:12 AM
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I do not think somebody tries to insult somebody. Sometimes a humor can be misunderstood because of local language idiomatics.

Back to Pianoteq. I tried this plugin and find it almost useless, at least for me, for a simple reason.

When I play Garritan CFX, or Ravensscroft 275, or even Synthogy AKG, I feel the resonance of a great body of the instrument made from the best 100-years-old wood, along with a careful hand-made tuning and mechanics.

When I play Pianoteq, I feel a tin can resonating with the strings. All the good playability is spoiled by this feeling. Again, this is my personal feeling, I am not inspired by this plugin.




Last edited by Andrew_G; 06/19/19 06:16 AM.
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Chopin Acolyte #2860310 06/19/19 06:12 AM
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Let's start over. Let's get back to the original topic: What DPs really lack compared to the acoustic piano.

Answer: STRINGS.

Ok ... now just close this thread. Done. smile

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Chopin Acolyte #2860312 06/19/19 06:21 AM
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Chopin Acolyte, well, you sure have gotten a lot of bang for your buck here on PW! My opinion... you have a limited budget. Within that budget only one new digital answers your main needs. The VPC1. You might look for a used MP11, that Grand Feel action is preferable to me, but if you are looking for the heaviest Kawai, VPC1 is it. Software pianos are your only hope to fine tune what you are looking for. As for the stand... there are rock solid ones for $200 or less. Search the forum or post the question. Pedals... yeah, never find what you are looking for in a DP.

it’s fun to consider the options, but at some point you just need to make a decision and live with it. No digital will satisfy you completely, so accept that and enjoy the amazing technology available for a relatively small price tag. good luck!


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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Andrew_G #2860314 06/19/19 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew_G
I do not think somebody tries to insult somebody. Sometimes a humor can be misunderstood because of local language idiomatics.

That's a possible explanation. If that's the case I will apologize to Jethro for overreacting to his comments. It's probably a bad coincidence that somebody (anonymously) started ridiculing me under my YouTube videos. Even if that won't qualify as an insult and is probably just humor, I don't like it smile I mean, there's so much to be discussed about technology and related stuff that any comments involving personal remarks, even in a very humorous way, are to me already kind of smelly. But that could be a cultural thing indeed. Not sure how that's in the US, but around here (and OK you can call us barbarians), the easiest way to start a fight is to make personal jokes laugh


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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Chopin Acolyte #2860319 06/19/19 07:00 AM
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Chopin Acolyte:
Just buy the VPC1 (1300€)
V3 Sound Grand Piano XXL (450€) sound module or the "noire" sample library (140€)
a good headphone (200€)

and your under 2000€!!!

The VPC has a stable action with the possibility to create your own velocity curves (dynamic) on the pc. Its the most flexible tool on a DP as far as I know (with greatest dynamics possibilities). Why do you need speakers if the reason is to practice in silence (disturb nobody)? Anyway the most speakers do not sound very good with piano libraries...

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Chopin Acolyte #2860322 06/19/19 07:11 AM
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Just a reminder about velocity curves in Pianoteq: regardless of which keyboard is being used, the velocity curve can be tuned in any which way it might be desired. From the half-decent, to the fully decent, to the absolutely ridiculous.


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28
Pianoteq 6.5 (Bechstein DG, Grotrian, Steinway D, K2), Garritan CFX Lite, Production Voices Estate Grand
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Chopin Acolyte #2860327 06/19/19 07:42 AM
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In the same way that Steinways (the good/vintage ones) need to be prepped at the dealer, Pianoteq needs to be tamed by its owners, so that the ‘tin can’ effect mentioned above can be transformed into a roaring beast that responds to its owner’s commands: Sit, roll over, Pianoteq!

P.S.

I also agree with Quasi’s objective observations: Pianoteq is the best! laugh

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
JoeT #2860329 06/19/19 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Pagan Min

Does the action on P-515 feel same or at least close to VPC's action though?

Much better. But the Yamaha P-515 is a product half a decade newer, so this is to be expected.

The VPC1 is niche product for a small audience and now pretty much outdated. The MP series has seen two generations, since the MP10 got downstripped to the VPC1.


haha, "newer" means "better" right? The VPC is not outdated as it is produced in a very fine quality! I like the action and the feel of the (white) keys. I tried the P-515. Did not like the action at all. Also the keys are not really wooden (they are made out of plastic with side stripes of wood). Show me pictures of the 515 action. Kawai is always very fair (you can see pictures of the actions on the websites).

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Chopin Acolyte #2860332 06/19/19 07:57 AM
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I'm a complete noob so whatever I say should be taken in that context.

I have a digital piano but I've played on two actual pianos that weren't in great shape so far and I have to say that even though they were really bad, the experience was more enjoyable to me than my Casio PX-160 is.

There certainly was a difference for sure.

I've played guitar for many many years and I've had literally hundreds of guitars and towards the last of my guitar playing I played on some "so so" classicals, and also on one really good luthier made instrument. That luthier made guitar was LIGHT YEARS away from the others due to it's construction; it was bright and lively and responsive...the others took "work" to play and the experience wasn't the same...it wasn't inspiring! and I look at this like it's the same conversation; sure, an electric guitar with acoustic simulation or a thin-line acoustic guitar plugged in to an amp is "like" a fine classical but it ISN'T a classical for the very same reason...the EXPERIENCE isn't the same and can never be because the two aren't the same thing. One is a photo of the mona lisa painting and the other IS the mona lisa painting. The photo will never have the built up paint, ridges, smell and texture of the actual mona lisa no matter how close it gets.

I found that (for me) that experience is the "thing" and that's why I'm looking for an upright now instead of a high end digital.

Last edited by PianoWVBob; 06/19/19 07:59 AM.
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
PianoWVBob #2860339 06/19/19 08:23 AM
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Re: Mona Lisa

Yes, that is true about the photo never having the same feel as the real thing, but I don't miss the long lines, the crowds to see her, and being pushed through rather than being able to linger.

It does make a difference when one can sit in front of the painting and contemplate the meaning. I like the one of "George Washington Crossing the Delaware" for that reason.

back to the main topic: I liked your comment about other instruments taking "work" to play. That is how I felt about some of the mid range digital hybrids that I tried. I had to work to make the fast repeated notes sound decent. On the high end pianos though, the same passages felt effortless.


Originally Posted by PianoWVBob
I'm a complete noob so whatever I say should be taken in that context.

I have a digital piano but I've played on two actual pianos that weren't in great shape so far and I have to say that even though they were really bad, the experience was more enjoyable to me than my Casio PX-160 is.

There certainly was a difference for sure.

I've played guitar for many many years and I've had literally hundreds of guitars and towards the last of my guitar playing I played on some "so so" classicals, and also on one really good luthier made instrument. That luthier made guitar was LIGHT YEARS away from the others due to it's construction; it was bright and lively and responsive...the others took "work" to play and the experience wasn't the same...it wasn't inspiring! and I look at this like it's the same conversation; sure, an electric guitar with acoustic simulation or a thin-line acoustic guitar plugged in to an amp is "like" a fine classical but it ISN'T a classical for the very same reason...the EXPERIENCE isn't the same and can never be because the two aren't the same thing. One is a photo of the mona lisa painting and the other IS the mona lisa painting. The photo will never have the built up paint, ridges, smell and texture of the actual mona lisa no matter how close it gets.

I found that (for me) that experience is the "thing" and that's why I'm looking for an upright now instead of a high end digital.

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
PianoWVBob #2860354 06/19/19 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by PianoWVBob
I'm a complete noob so whatever I say should be taken in that context.

I have a digital piano but I've played on two actual pianos that weren't in great shape so far and I have to say that even though they were really bad, the experience was more enjoyable to me than my Casio PX-160 is.

There certainly was a difference for sure.

I've played guitar for many many years and I've had literally hundreds of guitars and towards the last of my guitar playing I played on some "so so" classicals, and also on one really good luthier made instrument. That luthier made guitar was LIGHT YEARS away from the others due to it's construction; it was bright and lively and responsive...the others took "work" to play and the experience wasn't the same...it wasn't inspiring! and I look at this like it's the same conversation; sure, an electric guitar with acoustic simulation or a thin-line acoustic guitar plugged in to an amp is "like" a fine classical but it ISN'T a classical for the very same reason...the EXPERIENCE isn't the same and can never be because the two aren't the same thing. One is a photo of the mona lisa painting and the other IS the mona lisa painting. The photo will never have the built up paint, ridges, smell and texture of the actual mona lisa no matter how close it gets.

I found that (for me) that experience is the "thing" and that's why I'm looking for an upright now instead of a high end digital.


Well put, Bob. Your reasoning is exactly why I will buy a fine acoustic upright in the future, most likely in three to five years. I don’t believe any digital will give me the acoustic tone that I seek.

I went through a number of guitars, first starting with electric, which I did not bond well with. So, I switched to classical guitar and started studying with a teacher. Nine years later, I have upgraded through a number of luthier built classical guitars and wound up with a a cedar top by Antonio Marin Montero and a spruce top by Manuel Velazquez. Both guitars are delightful in their own way.

I’m happy with those two standard classical guitars and have stopped upgrading. I also have a small romantic guitar, a replica of a 19th century Roudhloff, and a massive 900mm contra bass guitar for ensemble work, but I’m done, I swear. Those four guitars fit in a wheeled rack and I play all of them every week.

I’d love to get some ideas on what are the best low cost older used uprights that have quality construction and excellent tone.

Last edited by LarryK; 06/19/19 09:07 AM.

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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Chopin Acolyte #2860364 06/19/19 09:47 AM
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How much does the P515 cost? How much does the VPC cost?

How do the key actions compare?

I ask because I'm beginning to think that a full-featured slab (like the P515) is a better value.

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
CyberGene #2860369 06/19/19 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Andrew_G
I do not think somebody tries to insult somebody. Sometimes a humor can be misunderstood because of local language idiomatics.

That's a possible explanation. If that's the case I will apologize to Jethro for overreacting to his comments. It's probably a bad coincidence that somebody (anonymously) started ridiculing me under my YouTube videos. Even if that won't qualify as an insult and is probably just humor, I don't like it smile I mean, there's so much to be discussed about technology and related stuff that any comments involving personal remarks, even in a very humorous way, are to me already kind of smelly. But that could be a cultural thing indeed. Not sure how that's in the US, but around here (and OK you can call us barbarians), the easiest way to start a fight is to make personal jokes laugh

This may sound funny, but after being together 15+ years, A few years ago, I actually took an online course to understand my Russian wife. And now the laughter will redouble when I say: it actually helped a lot!

My experience with this Coursera course showed there is a lot about communication which has nothing to do with the language. Even when two counterparties in a conversation are fluent in the language they are talking in, they could be not communicating because of cultural differences. Now when she does something that irritates me, I stop to think, "what did that Coursera course teach me about how Russians communicate?" And usually the moment will pass and I will just not get upset as I did before. thumb


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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Andrew_G #2860397 06/19/19 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew_G
I do not think somebody tries to insult somebody. Sometimes a humor can be misunderstood because of local language idiomatics.

Back to Pianoteq. I tried this plugin and find it almost useless, at least for me, for a simple reason.

When I play Garritan CFX, or Ravensscroft 275, or even Synthogy AKG, I feel the resonance of a great body of the instrument made from the best 100-years-old wood, along with a careful hand-made tuning and mechanics.

When I play Pianoteq, I feel a tin can resonating with the strings. All the good playability is spoiled by this feeling. Again, this is my personal feeling, I am not inspired by this plugin.





Seems to be because some of the tonal frequencies on any one note (presumably due to the 3 strings being slightly differently tuned) are causing some sort of phasing effect noticeable during legato passages. Sounds a bit metallic due to that.

Currently, I'm preferring the Roland modelling which seems to have this artifact but to a lesser degree.


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Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Chopin Acolyte #2860430 06/19/19 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen

Let's let this thread go to its heavenly rest.

I suggest that ChopinAcolyte should start a new thread, when he's wrung-out his P515.



This thread was meant to let you guys give me some advice about a DP that would suit my needs (in terms of touch) and also share my thoughts after I settle down for something. But if you don't want to hear it, I can keep the aftermath for myself.

Thank you all for your advice.


You mis-understood me:

I do want to hear your thoughts on the P515.

I think a new thread would be justified, for them.


. Charles
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PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Andrew_G #2860433 06/19/19 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew_G

When I play Garritan CFX, or Ravensscroft 275, or even Synthogy AKG, I feel the resonance of a great body of the instrument made from the best 100-years-old wood, along with a careful hand-made tuning and mechanics.

When I play Pianoteq, I feel a tin can resonating with the strings. All the good playability is spoiled by this feeling. Again, this is my personal feeling, I am not inspired by this plugin.


Well put, exactly my feelings about it. I actually wonder why the developers are not able to make it sound less "tin canny" yet. I would really want to play it, but it's just not working out between us. (Me and pianoteq, that is.)

Also, there's some notes that don't make a sound at all! They should really fix that. smirk

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
MacMacMac #2860440 06/19/19 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
haha, "newer" means "better" right? The VPC is not outdated as it is produced in a very fine quality! I like the action and the feel of the (white) keys.

The VPC1's pivot length is too short for my taste. This is the case due to its outdated action. Kawai's current actions all feature sufficient key lengths.

Quote
I tried the P-515. Did not like the action at all. Also the keys are not really wooden (they are made out of plastic with side stripes of wood).


This myth is repeated occasionally, but it is still completely wrong. The NWX action features fully wooden white keys. It's obvious once you have the action in front of you.

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
How much does the P515 cost? How much does the VPC cost?
How do the key actions compare?
I ask because I'm beginning to think that a full-featured slab (like the P515) is a better value.

That is exactly my thinking. Additionally I think Yamaha's action is superior to the old RM3.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
JoeT #2860460 06/19/19 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT

That is exactly my thinking. Additionally I think Yamaha's action is superior to the old RM3.


I'll let you know if I feel that superiority in a couple of hours.

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
JoeT #2860470 06/19/19 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT

The VPC1's pivot length is too short for my taste. This is the case due to its outdated action. Kawai's current actions all feature sufficient key lengths.


Yep. I stopped playing my MP10 for that reason. Some pieces were awkward compared to a grand.

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