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This evening I spent about 90 minutes at a well known large chain instrument store trying out some of the more recently announced stage pianos. I generally find that digital pianos fall over when trying to project and shape a singing melody over accompaniment with good control of tone. Most lack the sustain of tone to accomplish this. I played a Yamaha CP88, Roland RD-2000, Yamaha MoDX (88-key) and some keyboards I’ve played before— Yamaha MOXF8 and Korg Kronos. I would have liked to try a Kawai MP11SE and Korg Grandstage, but they were not available.

Material I used to evaluate them consisted of:
Brahms Intermezzo in A Op. 118 #2
Chopin Nocturne in Eb Op. 9 #2
Chopin Grande Valse Brilliante in Eb Op. 18
Couperin Les Barricades Mysterieuses

The results were not what I expected.

The MoDX has an interesting collection of sounds with a Yamaha FM synthesis engine (or samples of the same) incorporated. But clearly Yamaha did not include their best piano sounds in it. Sustain was minimal and sample looping very noticeable, completely incapable of being used to play music like the above.

The Korg Kronos has the Korg SGX-2 piano engine with long, unlooped samples. Sustain is good, but I don’t find that the action supports playing with my hand near the fall board very well for “playing on the black keys”. This has been an issue for me on several Korg keyboards I’ve tried, so I’m not hopeful for the Korg Grandstage either, but have not played it.

Considering all the hype about getting a V-piano modeled sound in an RD-2000, I have to say that I was thoroughly underwhelmed by this keyboard. I could not find a piano patch on it that supported adequate sustain to play the Brahms Intermezzo or Chopin Nocturne despite a collection of modeled v-piano patches and a collection of Roland supernatural sampled patches being available on the keyboard. I didn’t find any piano patch on the keyboard that was clearly superior to the supernatural piano on my Jupiter-50 in terms of sustain and tone control without having the two keyboards side-by-side to compare (although the weighted action was better for piano of course).

I spent some time with a Yamaha MOXF8 to refresh my perspective as I had not played one in a while. It was like a breath of fresh air after the RD-2000 with significantly more sustain in the main Yamaha grand sample. I could hear the sound get noticeably louder when the main grand sample was looped, an unfortunate defect. This was still the 2nd best instrument I tried overall.

I played the CP88 last, and it was hands down superior to the rest. No contest. If the MOXF8 looping were seamless it would be close, but the CP88 has a surprisingly long sustain for a digital piano and to my ears, a fairly natural decay. The action handled the repeated notes in the 2nd theme of the Grande Waltz Brilliante effortlessly. Trills in the Couperin piece could be played cleanly and evenly. Overall this was a great result for a digital piano. Both the Yamaha CFIII and Bosendorfer Imperial Grand samples are probably equally good overall, but I preferred the aesthetic and smoothness of the Bosendorfer sample.

I did not evaluate the bass tone of any of the instruments. That is very dependent on playback system, and generally is not the limiting factor on digital pianos these days, at least for my needs.

Is the CP88 a substitute for an acoustic piano? Unfortunately, no. Control of tone and dynamics is still not on par with strings, hammers, and a mechanical action. But it significantly surpassed my expectations. It is a noticeable upgrade on the Yamaha CP4 also.

Some thoughts...

Kronos (73/88) has same RH3 actions as Grandstage. People have commented that not every RH3 has felt the same, but the basic design like pivot point that would affect front of key vs. rear of key feel wouldn't change.

All the MOXF piano sounds are also in the MODX (and more).

Yamaha also makes additional sounds for the MODX freely downloadable, including the Bösendorfer Imperial Premium Grand Piano which is over 400 mb in size, so you arguably did not hear the MODX at its best, especially since the Bosendorfer was the sound you preferred in the CP88. I suspect the sound would be very much the same. Though the CP88 would have the preferable action.

Hi,

The CP88 is a stage piano for gigging musicians and is not a stage piano designed for people who mostly play solo piano pieces. It is not a CP4 replacement with regards to its design philosophy.
Note---the CP88 doesn't have the NXW action that the P515 has.
Note 2 --- the CP88 has no sympathetic string resonance like the P515 and other CLP models, as this has no use within a band setup playing in mono. Therefore, the piano sound is not Yamaha's finest.

The CP88 is a competitor for the Nord Pianos. If you want a stage like piano for whatever reasons and wish to play solo piano, there are better options.

e.g., The Kawai MP11SE - comes with better action - and combine with a VST. If you like Yamaha sounds, there are better VST's for the CFX grand e.g., Garritan CFX grand. That played through the Kawai MP11SE should feel better than playing solo piano on a Yamaha stage or portable piano.

Alternatively, if you like the NXW action, the P515 might suit you better. Again, you could add a VST to acquire a more expressive experience.

Why do you want all the fancy stuff if you're playing the above pieces? Maybe You'd be better buying both a MODX combined with a VPC1 and VST (piano controller). That way, you can have the great fun but also play a more piano like digital.

You didn't say whether you like the action on the RD2000, as you could always add a VST to this board if the PHA50 action suited you.

There is a thread currently running that is discussing the various VST's and sustain time is mentioned on that.

Kind regards,

Doug.

CP88 is a reface of MONTAGE to look like Nord with silly restrictions added. It is a sampler (an audio player with many effects and many fancy buttons). The only benefit is the key action which IMHO Yamaha is asking too much for it.

CP4 was a more advanced instrument but apparently, Yamaha simplifies its synths generation after generation. So soon we will be left with only 88 keys which we should pay $3000 for it.

There are (and will be) better samples for MODX and MONTAGE in all instrument categories.

The CP4 may have technical specs that the CP88 lacks, but I have not been able to get a singing tone out of a CP4. The CP88 is noticeably better on that dimension (for me), though neither will replace an acoustic piano (for me).

That’s what I would have thought. I was not able to locate any satisfactory piano sounds in the MODX fiddling with the user interface. Perhaps the MODX is a keyboard that is unusable (at least for me) without the owner’s manual in hand.

How did you play these instruments? Through amplification? If so, which?
Or through headphones? And if so, which?

Through powered studio monitors. None of the issues I encountered were of a nature that would be affected by the choice of amplification though.

I thought the sound engine behind the CP88 and the MODX8 is the same? The MODX8 even contains more samples. And the major difference is the touch of the keys.

They will not sound exactly the same. This question has been asked from BadMister in Yamaha's website. The reply was:
"They are not the same samples and even they are the way the samples are married to the key action differs"...

There are several possible things:
1- CP88 and MONTAGE share the same samples but CP might have some extra velocity layers or more keys in its sample sets (e.g. Tyros has some samples which are partially included in MOTIF XF).
2- There are 3 new piano voices.
3- The voice is set up differently. Master effects and other parameters are different.

That being said, I can assure you that MODX, MONTAGE, and CP88 sound very similar.

The samples in Yamaha keyboards are all the same. What Yamaha does is to make the samples available with different details. In the entry-level keyboards probably fewer samples and layers. Also, Yamaha keeps some of the samples exclusive to special instruments. Like S700 piano which you can never have it on Genos or Tyros. Or the DP exclusive samples are reserved for DPs.

Yes, keyboard manufacturers like to advertise that a cheaper keyboard has the same sound engine or sample library as a more expensive model in their product line but not mention that it is not the same sound end-to-end. The cheaper keyboard may have cheaper/inferior D/A converters and/or noisier output stage op-amps and/or lack some of the DSP firmware or hardware that does some post-processing to the samples before D/A conversion.

I think the issue I had with the MODX likely was more not being able to navigate the user interface successfully without an owner’s manual to locate all, or even the best piano sounds it has available. What I played were terrible— lacking the sustain to play anything that even remotely resembled having a singing tone. Not only did notes die out before a successor note was played but the looping was obvious. This would not be affected by which speaker or headphone were used.

I could have purchased a new MOXF6 for $720 that evening had I been so inclined.

Do you remember which patch did you use for playing on the MODX?

This just demonstrates that stage pianos aren't the best choice for classical repertoire. Use them for pop instead.

The prices are telling, no? You can't expect top-notch piano sound from low- to mid-priced keyboards.

Not a top-notch. But currently, the sound quality in the mid range DP (regardless stage or furniture style) is embarrassing in relation to the price. Especially when you think of the development of the electronic industry and IT of the last 20 years.

Unfortunately, I do not. I tried half a dozen piano patches.

Why should a DP need to be embedded in a large piece of furniture to be suitable for classical music? Isn’t that lack of need of a large case, iron frame, and large sound board their primary advantage? If I am going to have a non-portable instrument that takes up the space of an upright acoustic, I’ll just play an upright acoustic— no need for electricity or a sound system to render the sound.

Moreover, instruments that require excessive menu diving do not exactly make great stage keyboards even if they are portable.

You forget the headphones at night.

A stage piano doesn't have to reproduce the fine details of an acoustic piano for so many reasons:
1- PA ruins the output anyway.
2- If you're performing in a band, the instrument (piano) will be accompanied by many other instruments and the details of your digital piano will get lost in the mix.
3- People can't hear them, basically because of 1+2 and the fact that they talk to each other, there is other background noise etc.
4- ... and many more!

Stage Pianos don't have to be static but must be very rugged and mobile.

In comparison, a digital piano is usually placed in a corner and will never move. If you have a fine DP, you may play solo songs not in a band. Then sound, touch and the details become important. Also the look, you don't want to play solo on an ugly metal frame... you'd rather play something which is furnished.

The functionality of a DP as a stage instrument is minimal but it's the other way for a stage piano...

So to wrap it up, companies will never make their best piano to be a stage piano! Because the cost of putting the best they have in slab format will be through the roof and no one cares that much. It'll be a niche instrument and only certain musicians will buy it.

EDIT: Acoustic, although sounds amazing, requires maintanance. It goes out of tune, it's very heavy and you can't hook headphones to it to avoid others going nots while you're practicing!!!

It’s purely a marketing issue. There is no reason the cost should have to exceed the cost of a stage piano, laptop, and VST because we can already do that. I think Yamaha is already getting close with the CP88.

Why I bought the CP88 (long-winded review/statement)

For my history, I have previously owned a Roland A90 Piano/Midi controller and a Yamaha Clavinova PF-100 (circa 1994) and I got incredible amount of use from both but due to personal changes in my life I thought it was time to upgrade since I haven’t had anything new for almost 25 years.
Just so everyone knows, I am not biased with any company whatsoever.

Fast forward to Nov/2018 where I purchased a Nord Piano 4. Absolutely LOVED the sound however, there was a huge issue with the keybed as it was making more noise than it should. To the point upon release of the keys the noise would resonate through my mic and through my L1 compact. Not acceptable.

After many views Youtube comparison videos and personal demoing in my local music stores I was undecided between the Korg Grandstage, Korg Kronos, Roland RD 2000, Yamaha CP4, Korg Krome nd the Roland FA-08.
All great pianos/workstations so it was a matter of sound, versatility and of course the keybed.

So, back in April I my local store had a CP88 so I jumped on. They had it running through a small Fender amp and even with that I got soooo sooo excited ….just as I did my Nord. So, when that excitement hits, instinctively I go with it. Plus, the keybed/action was just so soooo amazing that the decision was made there and then. So, traded in my Nord Piano 4 it in for my new love, the CP88. Unfortunately they only had the floor model so they gave me their floor model as a loaner until the new one came in.

So, as far as sound. I will admit I am not as happy with the piano sounds themselves compared to the Nord but with some tweaking with the EQ I have got 3 amazing piano sounds that I am very very happy with. The CFX has this sort of tinny sound to it and I will admit I thought the CFX on the CP4 was a bit better. However, the Imperial, S700 and the upright U1 are truly amazing. A little tweaking and you can basically get a great sound out of it.
The CP80/70 sample is definitely comparable to the Nord (which I use quite a bit in my set) so apart from the bug that’s going to b fixed this coming September it sounds absolutely incredible.
The Wurlitzer (especially with April’s update) totally blows the Nord away. I am just so so happy with it as it really helps with my Supertramp/10cc tunes that I use in my setlist.

The keybed, Well, it truly came down to the CP4, the RD2000 and the CP88. The CP4 was great for sure as was the RD2000 but after a number of jumps between the CP88 and the RD 2000 I found the RD was a little heavier than the CP88 and the CP4 was a little lighter so the CP88 was the perfect balance between the two. As weird as it sounds (no pun) I feel my playing has actually improved on the CP88. Songs that I had a hard time playing before (Tony Banks’ Lamb intro and Firth Of Fifth plus some blues scales for example) are coming much more easier. Weird how that works.

Yes, there are only 57 sounds with the CP88 as opposed to the NP4 and yes you can load samples into the NP4 but I had to be practical within myself. I use Logic Pro X for a trillion sounds that I can trigger so for home use/editing/sequencing for backing tracks the limitation of the sounds in the CP88 is not limiting to me at all. Plus, one has to ask themselves……or myself…how many sounds does one actually need? I mean seriously…these are stage pianos. I usually get between 3-5 gigs per month and I do not use more than 4-5 sounds within my 40 song setlist. So it’s basically, Acoustic Piano, CP80, Wurli, Rhodes and a AP with a combined Ample Acoustic Guitar (triggered through my laptop) /Piano sounds. The rest are just icing on the cake.
Ok, the other pianos may give you way more sounds but in all honesty, many of them are just different variations of the same sample, Don't let 1000 sounds fool you into thinking you're getting 1000 samples because you're not.

Now, that’s just me and I can’t speak for anyone else’s needs as everyone has different needs and requirements.

I also love the fact that I do not have to use my M-Audio interface anymore as the CP88 has a USB audio interface built in so with that and my upcoming purchase of a Yamaha MG10XU mixer (USB audio interface) going through my Bose L1 Compact system will be the perfect match for me.

So this whole notion that CP88 blows this out of the water…or The RD2000 feels better or the Nord Pianos sound so much better is total nonsense. It is ALL down to personal taste for personal needs.

I will say for price, keybed, versatility (again depending on your needs), sound and weight (yes I can actually carry the piano in my gig bag with one hand) the CP88 is hard to beat….but that’s just me.

Finally, I will say buying a piano is actually worse than buying a house or a car. Very stressful at times and we always want to make the "right" purchase. Yes, you can watch a trillion Youtube videos, read all of their comments, jump on the forums, get a a thousand different opinions and yes it helps but many times it can actually confuse you even more and also cause ulcers...LOL.
It’s best to think of your own needs and try not to let anyone’s opinions (comments) sway you but your own.

Cost/price aside there will ALWAYS be pluses and minuses to any of these pianos and if I had to do it all over again I would have waited until April this year before purchasing the Nord and maybe taken more time to study as it’s been 9-10 months to land to where I am now.

I hope my experience/review will resonate with anyone who is undecided in purchasing the CP88 or any other piano for that matter.

Now get out there and get a CP88!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You won’t regret it….LOL!!!

I think piano manufacturers also figure if there is not room in the case for their very best DP action, why does it matter if it has the best piano sound? A player can compensate for some idiosyncrasies in an action, within reason, but if the piano sound does not have enough sustain of tone, there is very little if anything the player can do, so I think it does matter.