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Piano & Room Size, Voicing and other Questions #2859102
06/16/19 10:30 AM
06/16/19 10:30 AM
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Southeast US
ShiroKuro Offline OP
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I am in the middle of my search for a grand to replace my upright and have been reading all the various threads on here closely. So, revisiting the question of a piano overwhelming a room acoustically, people often recommend having the piano voiced once it gets in its new home if it's too much for the room, and when advising posters about a new (or used) piano purchase, people will often recommend voicing when the question of size is brought up.

But do you really want to purchase a piano knowing you're going to need to have it voiced right away? If you like how it sounds when you're testing it out, but then you get it home and voice it, isn't it possible that you'd lose the very quality for which you bought it?

When I asked my tuner about whether he thought my upright needed voicing, he really cautioned against it, saying that voicing is "destructive" (his word) and once you do it, it can't be undone. (Granted, this was regarding my old upright, and knowing I'm piano shopping, he may have also been motivated by thinking it wouldn't be money well-spent on this particular instrument.)

Still, his very conservative take seems out of step with a lot of posters here. Can anyone comment more about the use of voicing for large pianos in small rooms? Is it possible that something like that could later affect the resell-ability of the instrument?

My room is 11 x 18, and I've been thinking I want to stay under 6 feet. I really don't like being in a room that's overwhelmed acoustically by a piano. But this nuymber (under 6') also comes from the Piano Buyer article about piano/room size that some people in a recent thread were saying is out-dated.

In any case, I've been trying to use consistent criteria so that when I'm looking at pianos for sale online, I can automatically rule out anything that's "too big" (plus that means less of me having to drive all over the place to try out pianos) but "too big" is such a moving target, I'm wondering if I need to reassess.

So, any comments regarding the question of piano size, room size and voicing will be appreciated!


Started piano June 1999.
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Re: Piano & Room Size, Voicing and other Questions [Re: ShiroKuro] #2859115
06/16/19 11:00 AM
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Does your room open into another room with more than a door width opening?

Re: Piano & Room Size, Voicing and other Questions [Re: ShiroKuro] #2859120
06/16/19 11:08 AM
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No but there are two door-width doors (one opening into the family room and one into a hallway). These doors don't actually have doors on them, they are just openings, and they are at the opposite side of the room from the where the piano will go. I need to get a little drawing of this room....


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Re: Piano & Room Size, Voicing and other Questions [Re: ShiroKuro] #2859121
06/16/19 11:10 AM
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I wouldn't count on voicing. For a grand I wouldn't also consider anything smaller than 5'8". I would put an area carpet below the piano and play it with the lid closed or sometimes on the short stick.

Re: Piano & Room Size, Voicing and other Questions [Re: ShiroKuro] #2859140
06/16/19 11:44 AM
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Re the lid, I also don't want to have a piano that I can't ever play open (that's the whole point of getting a grand is being able to open up the lid, short stick is fine but not all the closed).

Thanks for these comments so far everyone. Hopefully some "pro-voicing" people will chime in as well, since that's one thing I'm especially curious about.


Started piano June 1999.
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Re: Piano & Room Size, Voicing and other Questions [Re: ShiroKuro] #2859147
06/16/19 11:57 AM
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I doubt anyone will suggest voicing. IMO you should buy the piano as it sounds in the showroom. Voicing might be considered several years later. And it would be for other reasons than lowering down the overall sound volume of a piano.

Re: Piano & Room Size, Voicing and other Questions [Re: ShiroKuro] #2859166
06/16/19 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Re the lid, I also don't want to have a piano that I can't ever play open (that's the whole point of getting a grand is being able to open up the lid, short stick is fine but not all the closed).
My guess is that many grand owners rarely, if ever, play with the lid closed. Remember a lot sound comes out below the soundboard and through the space between the music desk and lid hinge if you play with the lid closed but fly lid folded back. I think there are many advantages to a grand vs. an upright even if it's not played with the lid up.

Re: Piano & Room Size, Voicing and other Questions [Re: ShiroKuro] #2859179
06/16/19 01:46 PM
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My experience playing 5' 10" pianos is they are very much real grand pianos and having less massive actions easier to play. With the lid up they easily fill a 25-40 person room. A 6' piano will too and 6' 2" to 6' 10" you're talking 50-100 people. 7' and above, 100+ people.

While 11x7 is small for a living room I think a 5' 10" will work albeit it'll be loud even with the lid down. But don't you dare voice it down. That's criminal.

I have a 7 footer in a 29x12 room and I never lift the lid during practice (too loud). The room is fully carpeted. However I will never voluntarily down size. Playing a "real" grand is one of the best things on earth.


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Re: Piano & Room Size, Voicing and other Questions [Re: pianoloverus] #2859180
06/16/19 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Re the lid, I also don't want to have a piano that I can't ever play open (that's the whole point of getting a grand is being able to open up the lid, short stick is fine but not all the closed).
My guess is that many grand owners rarely, if ever, play with the lid closed. Remember a lot sound comes out below the soundboard and through the space between the music desk and lid hinge if you play with the lid closed but fly lid folded back. I think there are many advantages to a grand vs. an upright even if it's not played with the lid up.
Woops, I meant to say with the lid UP in the first sentence.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 06/16/19 01:57 PM.
Re: Piano & Room Size, Voicing and other Questions [Re: ShiroKuro] #2859182
06/16/19 01:58 PM
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I have a room almost identical in size and openings to yours..., have s 7 foot grand that has not been voiced down and is played on full stick. The sound is full but not overwhelming, I, too was concerned when I bought it, but have needed no extraordinary treatments.

Underneath the piano is a thick rug pad and area rug. A fireplace on an adjacent wall ( no, it is never used) and some soft furnishings and cabinets to store music. Think it all helps the sound


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Re: Piano & Room Size, Voicing and other Questions [Re: ShiroKuro] #2859188
06/16/19 02:04 PM
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I always play with my lid up. I love the sound.


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Re: Piano & Room Size, Voicing and other Questions [Re: ShiroKuro] #2859210
06/16/19 03:02 PM
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IMO the room height is important too. The formula given in that article assumes the room height is 8'.

Re: Piano & Room Size, Voicing and other Questions [Re: ShiroKuro] #2859513
06/17/19 09:44 AM
06/17/19 09:44 AM
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ShiroKuro Offline OP
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Hakki:
[QUOTE]I doubt anyone will suggest voicing.[/QUOTE}

Well evidently not in this thread, but it comes up all the time whenever people are talking about pianos that are too loud in small rooms (it was brought in the thread about upright loudness as well). That's why I started this thread. I am not keen to pursuing voicing, rather I wanted to understand why people recommend it so often. (So, it's kind of funny that no one has in this thread!)

Dogperson, when you say "soft furnishings" what do you mean? Like sofa/chair type things? I was trying to figure out how you have a room the size of mine with all that stuff in it, but I am guessing your piano room has fewer doors and windows than mine does. In addition to the two doorways that lead to other parts of the house, my piano room also has our front door and a big triple window. Also on one of the shorter walls is an air return vent, so between that and the front door etc. I don't see how I am going to get very much furniture in here after I get a grand. Time will tell though!

Also, reading Hakki's other comment: Shoot, I keep forgetting to measure the ceiling height! (And now I am at my office, so that will have to wait until this evening).


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Re: Piano & Room Size, Voicing and other Questions [Re: ShiroKuro] #2859516
06/17/19 09:56 AM
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I have two openings to other rooms. One open and one sliding glass doors that leads out to patio. I have three chairs, one large area rug, window coverings, and two lap throws. As previously, one wall has fireplace and two windows. Two cabinets to store sheet music

I am far from an acoustic guru, but I think the asymmetry of ‘things’ in the room helps the sound.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Re: Piano & Room Size, Voicing and other Questions [Re: ShiroKuro] #2859521
06/17/19 10:12 AM
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Dogperson, thanks for those details. I suspect you're right about the role of asymmetry.

Unfortunately, the way my piano can be decorated (filled up with furniture) is pretty limited because of the front door. In any case, right now we've made a rule that we will not buy any furniture or add anything to the room until I get a new piano. Although, it's funny to note, going from that Piano Buyer article, that the placement of my current piano (upright) is apparently all wrong. grin


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Re: Piano & Room Size, Voicing and other Questions [Re: ShiroKuro] #2859525
06/17/19 10:23 AM
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Hi, ShiroKuro,

I've been reading your thread with interest and have noticed that, although you have gotten some good comments here, none of the professional piano techs/rebuilders/dealers/voicers have chimed in. Not sure why, but maybe they will at some point.

I'm certainly no pro, and only work on my own pianos. But I have done some hammer voicing on my pianos, with very good results, in my view. Voicing is basically a refinement of the tone or tone building. It (voicing) can make a big difference/improvement when a particular note or series of notes, or all 88 notes on a piano are shrill or harsh or overly bright or create zings, busses, twangs and other unwanted overtones that diminish the clarity and quality of the sound when a note is played.

Voicing starts with a very good tuning. Also, it is best to have the regulation at least close to specs before voicing is done. Also, voicing not only involves filing/reshaping of the hammer face, or needling of the hammer felt or applying hardening chemicals to the hammer strike point; it also involves things like hammer-to-string mating/alignment, string leveling and so on.

Hence, voicing is a series of actions that are done to improve the quality of the tone as much as possible, preferably to suit the piano owner's taste. Voicing can quieten and overly loud note or make a timid note louder. Voicing is also designed to balance out all 88 notes so the sound/tone/volume is balanced throughout the entire keyboard.

Also, and this is just my amateurish opinion here, no amount of voicing will drastically change the basic tone and timber of a certain piano. Voicing will make a very bright piano sound less bright and more pleasant sounding, but will not necessarily make it drastically mellow. Voicing will make a mellow sounding piano less mellow and some brighter, but will not change light to dark or dark to light, at least to a great extent. The changes that extensive voicing will make are not drastic but can be quite noticeable and welcome.

So, with that said, when a piano salesperson or dealer tells a prospective buyer they can voice the piano to sound anyway they want, I'm very skeptical. Yea, they can make a bright piano sound less bright, and a mellow piano less mellow, and balance out all the notes to be more in sync volumetrically, but it can't drastically change what has been created already at the piano factory.

Sorry for the long-winded post, and this is just my opinion of voicing, what it means and what it involves. It can be a good thing, a very good thing. Also, keep in mind that any and all voicing doesn't last a long time. If a piano needs a lot of voicing to sound good to the owner, it will continue to need voicing on a regular basis. At some point, all pianos can benefit from voicing, and should be part of an ongoing maintenance regiment, along with tuning. With that said, it is best to buy a piano that you like the sound of from the very beginning. Because voicing will not make a dramatic change and it will not last a long time before it needs it again and again.

Just my .02, after my 2nd cup of coffee this morning... smile

Good luck!

Rick


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Re: Piano & Room Size, Voicing and other Questions [Re: ShiroKuro] #2859618
06/17/19 02:55 PM
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Rickster, thanks for your comments! That helps me a lot to understand voicing, and what potential it has -- or doesn't! Given all that you describe here, it's really odd to me that people so casually suggest voicing as the solution to a variety of problems.


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Re: Piano & Room Size, Voicing and other Questions [Re: ShiroKuro] #2859682
06/17/19 05:17 PM
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According to "Grand obsession" voicing is a solution for a problem created by voicing done by a different technician.

Re: Piano & Room Size, Voicing and other Questions [Re: ShiroKuro] #2859690
06/17/19 05:55 PM
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Hammer head voicing is a tone regulating tool that comes into play after everything else in the piano is working correctly. Voicing is a refinement of a piano's tone, and it is usually done in degrees over time. The better manufacturers may do a fair amount of voicing in the factory to even out the tone across the entire scale before it is sent to a dealer for sale. (Lesser pianos appear to be shipped to dealers with little or no voicing...and sometimes with precious little tuning.)

Better dealers will have their technicians review each instrument and make modifications to the action and the sound to make the instrument present as well as it possibly can (dealer prep.) This may include voicing the hammers. If the instrument has been pre-voiced in the factory, dealer voicing might be minimal. If the factory did no, or not enough, voicing, then the dealer's technicians will have it done. Dealers of high-end pianos typically do more dealer prep that dealers of low-end instruments.

If the piano is new, or has new hammers, voicing will typically continue once the piano is in the home where the size of the room, amount of curtains, rugs, and furniture, etc. will all have some effect on the tone. Technicians work with the client to achieve the sound the client wants, within the limits of the instrument and its surroundings. (Voicing cannot make a Yamaha sound like a Steinway, for instance.) The technician may want to do additional voicing as the piano gets broken in, as the hammers will compact more, and unevenness in tone from note to note may emerge.

After that voicing takes place on a per-need basis. Over time every piano develops notes that sound noticeably different from adjacent notes, and the technician can often even out these differences through voicing.

As to the idea that voicing is a permanent alteration from which there is no going back...in a sense this is true. Bright hammers are made mellower by needling the hammer felt to loosen it and make it less compact (i.e., less hard). This is a permanent alteration of the hammer felt, and getting the felt to recompact into a harder hammer is barely doable, difficult, and not ideal. Good voicing technicians, because of training and experience, know how how far they can go with needling hammers to get satisfactory results without ruining the hammer head.

If hammers are too soft, producing a tone that is not bright enough for a customer, technicians can firm up hammers by applying diluted lacquer or other hammer-hardening liquid to the hammer head. Lacquering is truly permanent, and there's no recovery from it short of new hammers. Many technicians prefer to iron the tops of the hammer heads to firm them up before doing any lacquering, as the effects of ironing are easier to control.

In either type of voicing (up or down), technicians are typically conservative in their approach since it's often very difficult or impossible to undo what has been done.

Good voicing technicians are hard to find. Yes, most technicians know at least something about voicing, but some know a lot more than others. My last great technician took weeks-long voicing classes from both Steinway-Hamburg and Bösendorfer as part of his continuing education. Chapters of the Piano Technician's Guild (PTG) offer frequent classes to members about all aspects of piano care, including voicing. While maybe not foolproof, my experience is that technicians who handle primarily grands, especially concert-level instruments, know more about voicing that the technician whose business is primarily in consoles, spinets, and small uprights. (These smaller instruments have their own, unique issues, and technicians who care for them are unsung heroes in my book.)

One final note: hammer head voicing is not magic and cannot solve tone problems caused by other factors. E.g., if a piano's strings aren't level (one higher that the others), the hammer head will not hit all three strings with equal force, resulting is less volume from that note. It's not a hammer voicing issue, but a string adjustment issue. If the strings of an old grand have etched grooves in the capo d'astro bar, there may not be sufficient downbearing on the strings to produce good tone (requiring a rebuild). If the hammers aren't hitting the striking point precisely, the tone will seem dead. There are many other factors that can affect tone production. A good technician will think of all these factors when undertaking hammer voicing.


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Re: Piano & Room Size, Voicing and other Questions [Re: OE1FEU] #2859758
06/17/19 09:58 PM
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ShiroKuro Offline OP
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Originally Posted by OE1FEU
According to "Grand obsession" voicing is a solution for a problem created by voicing done by a different technician.


crazy It’s like meta-voicing. (I should read that book again now that I’m actively searching for a grand.)

Aaron, thank you for that very helpful (and interesting!) explanation!


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