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Apps for controlling piano functions - a bad idea? #2859585
06/17/19 01:24 PM
06/17/19 01:24 PM
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Melville Saskatchewan
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FrankCox Online content OP
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Some of the latest pianos use apps to access and control their functions, and I think that some pianos require the use of an app to access certain things that can't be set from the control panel on the piano itself.

Isn't this a severe limitation on the longevity of the digital piano? Apps, even more than regular computer programs, tend to become obsolete fairly quickly and I don't imagine that Roland or whoever would have any particular incentive to update the control app for a 20-year old piano so it will run on IOS version 87.3, Android 302.6 or even Fitznick version 2.5 (the must-have tablet operating system that was released in the year 2037).

So who keeps a piano that long so this would become an issue? We see people popping up here occasionally with a "classic Rhodes" and such, so it does happen.

I understand that apps are handy and convenient and even fun to use, and doing it this way probably requires less engineering on the piano design itself. But is it a good idea?


If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
We got both kinds of music: Country and Western!
Casio Celviano AP-650
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Re: Apps for controlling piano functions - a bad idea? [Re: FrankCox] #2859599
06/17/19 02:00 PM
06/17/19 02:00 PM
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Raleigh, North Carolina
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Yes, long-term support for such things is worrisome.

Anyway, who needs it?
My only remote control is the garage door opener ... and I only use that when I'm coming home in the rain.
So ... no, I wouldn't want (or need) a remote control on my piano.

Re: Apps for controlling piano functions - a bad idea? [Re: FrankCox] #2859606
06/17/19 02:19 PM
06/17/19 02:19 PM
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Posts: 97
Great State of Texas
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I think I can speak to this directly as I just got my father a CSP-150 this past weekend. That piano relies almost exclusively on the Yamaha Smart Pianist app in order to function outside of being a basic piano. On one hand, I understand your logic... but after having played with the piano rather extensively over the weekend, I think I've come to the opposite conclusion.

My father had toyed with the idea of buying the CVP-705. As you may know, all the technology is built in to the INSTRUMENT itself. There's some problems with this... first of all you're surrounded by a sea of buttons that you must learn, and even the newer models with touchscreens have a proprietary interface that is unfamiliar and gets dated pretty quickly. Second, having all this tech built in to the instrument itself makes such pianos much more expensive. By contrast, the CSP150 does the lion's share of what the CVP offers, yet costs a fraction of the price.

I plan on writing a full review of the CSP-150 soon on THIS THREAD, but I'll just quickly opine here and say that I'm all-in with the idea of using a tablet to unlock the features of a piano. It was a stroke of brilliance on Yamaha's part. It may not be future-proof - then again neither is the CVP - but I expect Yamaha will be supporting this strategy for a while as this form factor catches on.

Last edited by vara411; 06/17/19 02:20 PM.

Yamaha AvantGrand N3X
Re: Apps for controlling piano functions - a bad idea? [Re: FrankCox] #2859611
06/17/19 02:31 PM
06/17/19 02:31 PM
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I agree that relying on iOS apps for essential features is problematic. At least with a Mac or Windows machine, you can always find a machine onto which you can install an older version of the OS if need be. iOS is unique in that, once you upgrade, you can't even roll back a model you own to the version of the OS it came with. And Apple tries to push the upgrades onto your device. And if you ever need to do a re-install or service (which usually means swap), you have no choice but to use the newest OS for that device, there's no assurance of ever being able to continue to run the version you're running today unless it's the newest. And LOTS of apps have stopped running over the years. If you need to run an old Mac or Windows app, there are tons of cheap old machines around you can get your hands on without much trouble. But if you need to run an old iOS app? Good luck. I would not count on any iOS app today being runnable ten years from now. But I still play keyboards that are 10+ years old.

Re: Apps for controlling piano functions - a bad idea? [Re: FrankCox] #2859714
06/17/19 06:48 PM
06/17/19 06:48 PM
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Richmond, BC, Canada
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Charles Cohen Offline
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Originally Posted by FrankCox
. . .

I understand that apps are handy and convenient and even fun to use, and doing it this way probably requires less engineering on the piano design itself. But is it a good idea?


You're not the only person who feels like that.

I think it's a bad idea. I'm old-style in my expectations:

. . . If you buy hardware, it should continue to work reasonably well, when the world around it changes.

So a DP should be able to adjust _all_ its settings, without recourse to cell phones, computers (only Apple computers, sometimes!), or other add-ons.

Whether there are enough of us, spending enough money to convince the marketing and engineering departments to listen to us -- I have my doubts.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Apps for controlling piano functions - a bad idea? [Re: FrankCox] #2859792
06/18/19 12:15 AM
06/18/19 12:15 AM
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Great State of Texas
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Huh. I’m a bit surprised at all the skepticism. Again, I understand the logic... basically that updates to iOS might "bork" certain features. Makes sense, but perhaps if the manufacturer executed things properly and kept the software updated, this would be a non-issue.

In the case of the Yamaha CSP-150, all the voices and styles are built in to the instrument itself, the iPad app merely operates them via MIDI commands. Additionally, basic functions can be operated without the tablet.

For those wanting to be extra cautious, a possible solution would be to purchase an iPad for exclusive use with the instrument, with automatic OS and app updates disallowed.

I don’t know, perhaps I’m biased because of my recent purchase - okay, I am biased - but I also wanted to emphasize the upsides... I think Yamaha is just getting started with this technology. I think they’re through with the busy cockpit-style array of buttons and are trying to reach a broader demographic. In the case of my father, it’s been working so far! smile

Last edited by vara411; 06/18/19 12:17 AM.

Yamaha AvantGrand N3X
Re: Apps for controlling piano functions - a bad idea? [Re: FrankCox] #2859800
06/18/19 12:51 AM
06/18/19 12:51 AM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Online content
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vara411, may I ask if your father already owned an iPad, or did you purchase one and include it with your lovely gift?

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Apps for controlling piano functions - a bad idea? [Re: FrankCox] #2859812
06/18/19 01:51 AM
06/18/19 01:51 AM
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Kitsap County, WA
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What would be amazing is if the piano manufacturers would open the protocol so we could write our own apps. On any device. I actually can’t tell what the downside here would be in the case of Yamaha. The app is free, and you don’t buy the iPad from them. Oh scratch that, you can buy music through the app can’t you? Ah well.


𝒀𝒂𝒎𝒂𝒉𝒂 𝑨𝒗𝒂𝒏𝒕 𝑮𝒓𝒂𝒏𝒅 𝑵1𝑿
Re: Apps for controlling piano functions - a bad idea? [Re: vara411] #2859814
06/18/19 01:54 AM
06/18/19 01:54 AM
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Groove On Online content
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Originally Posted by vara411
... but perhaps if the manufacturer executed things properly and kept the software updated, this would be a non-issue.

If an app is required to use a keyboard, it’s a very bad idea - but I honestly think anything like that will go down in flames. Even in the long-term all this is probably a non-issue. If in 10 years, the keyboard you have now is worth any sort of nostalgia, I bet you’ll be able to download a “throwback” app for it; probably bundled together with other “nostalgic” apps - which you probably won’t want to download anyway (Roland Sound Canvas anyone?).

More important than all that, is the ability of keyboard/piano manufacturers to make compelling quality music apps. Some manufacturers are better equipped and motivated than others. For example, Korg has been blazing a trail to blur the line between keyboard and apps. Yamaha’s apps have been fairly inspired and user friendly, but still with a few misses. Roland’s apps have been pretty lackluster with a few hits (that might be a good thing in this case). Kawai’s music apps have both impressed and appalled me. Casio made a decent start, but like all the other manufacturers, they seem to be just at the beginning of what’s possible.


We are the music makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams.
Re: Apps for controlling piano functions - a bad idea? [Re: Chrispy] #2859830
06/18/19 02:46 AM
06/18/19 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Chrispy
What would be amazing is if the piano manufacturers would open the protocol so we could write our own apps. On any device. I actually can’t tell what the downside here would be in the case of Yamaha. The app is free, and you don’t buy the iPad from them. Oh scratch that, you can buy music through the app can’t you? Ah well.


This is extremely important.

Right now, where does it say that I need to buy a tablet of the most expensive brand to send a couple of SysEx messages to a piano?
And don't tell me about the superior iOS music framework, we are talking about a trivial serial protocol.

Some brands (Casio) have a very comprehensive documentation of the protocol. Others like Kawai seem to add a page to their manual just to tick a box.

I had to reverse engineer the Kawai iOS music app and I realised how weak the software on the piano is: send the wrong message and it will require a factory reset.
Again, don't tell me that if I send the wrong message, it is my fault: if the message is expected to be 10 bytes long and I send 9 or 11, it should reject it rather than overwrite some other memory.

I think the whole approach to software development needs to change: take inspiration from Arduino or Raspberry.
They sell hardware and give users all the information to let them make best usage with it.

I am not asking the ability to update a modified firmware (this is 100 years too early), but document everything else. Some people will write a "nostalgic" app so you can still control the piano in 10 years after the manufacturer has moved on.


Kawai CA78
(previously Kawai KDP90)
Re: Apps for controlling piano functions - a bad idea? [Re: vara411] #2859833
06/18/19 02:49 AM
06/18/19 02:49 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
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France
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Originally Posted by vara411
Makes sense, but perhaps if the manufacturer executed things properly and kept the software updated, this would be a non-issue.


IF ...

We can’t know what effort Yamaha will maintain on the CSP. MIDI drivers are well maintained since the Yamaha USB-MIDI protocol is still used by their product, but the downloading program which was sold with my CLP150 hasn’t been upgraded and I have to find a Windows 95 computer if I want to download a file on my 2002 digital piano. Then I am very skeptical about the life span of the required app.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Apps for controlling piano functions - a bad idea? [Re: FrankCox] #2859846
06/18/19 04:22 AM
06/18/19 04:22 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 238
Norfolk UK
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I don’t mind if an app makes things quicker, as long as you can still do them on the piano.

Ok in a perfect world, they would make it easy to do on the piano without the need of an app, and I wonder how much extra cost this would cause compared to developing and maintaining the app.

My Casio PX 870, it’s a bit of a pain to do things like set the metronome using the keyboard alone, but it is possible. The app makes these things 1000 times easier, and as I have my iPad there anyway, it’s no big deal.

Re: Apps for controlling piano functions - a bad idea? [Re: FrankCox] #2859917
06/18/19 08:53 AM
06/18/19 08:53 AM
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Posts: 207
Philadelphia
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Own a modern car? Then get into a twenty year old one?

These apps are essential and change the way you interact with your machine, whatever kind of machine it is. My RD-2000 is so darn complex and to get to any of the cool EP effects, you have to dive into the menus and it can be arduous. I get inspired to .... "run this through a leslie!!!".... three minutes later, I am lost and now I don't want to play with it any more. Menus have a negative impact. A wide screen on a laptop with a cool GUI can change the way you enjoy and interact. They are essential.

Further, the app to control is just a gateway to more features such as blending a DAW, band in a box-style software, and a ton of stuff we haven't even thought about.... Maybe an internet linked band or remote teaching!

App control of your keyboard is a doorway into all kinds of fun and enlightening experiences.

Regarding long term support: Yes, it is a concern, but operating systems and hardware is so powerful now, any old software can reside in an environment that simulates the original.... I am not worried. Besides, who here of my age pines for the motorized-tuning in cars back in the 60s? Tomorrow, will always be better.

Peace
Bruce in Philly


Peace
Bruce in Philly
Re: Apps for controlling piano functions - a bad idea? [Re: Bruce In Philly] #2859938
06/18/19 09:42 AM
06/18/19 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce In Philly
My RD-2000 is so darn complex and to get to any of the cool EP effects, you have to dive into the menus and it can be arduous. I get inspired to .... "run this through a leslie!!!".... three minutes later, I am lost and now I don't want to play with it any more.

That is why some people prefer boards like Korg SV1, Yamaha CP88/73, or Nord anything. Fewer options, but quick easy access to the things you typically most want.

Originally Posted by Bruce In Philly
Regarding long term support: Yes, it is a concern, but operating systems and hardware is so powerful now, any old software can reside in an environment that simulates the original.... I am not worried.

A lot of iOS apps broke with the end of 32-bit support on iOS 11. There is essentially no longer any way to run those apps unless you own or can locate an older iOS device that has never been updated, which gets harder to find as Apple pushed updates pretty aggressively. Even if you keep an old iOS device around update to run your old apps, if it ever needs to be re-installed or serviced/replaced, you'll lose access to that version of the OS. Even if you find an old non-updated iOS device on eBay or whatever, you may not be able to load the app because old apps are often pulled from the app store, and Apple no longer supports local backup.

Originally Posted by Bruce In Philly
Besides, who here of my age pines for the motorized-tuning in cars back in the 60s? Tomorrow, will always be better.

My pet peeve, so much gets worse. In keyboards, for example, Korg replaced their 2006-ish midline workstation, the TR, with the M50, and then the Krome. Yes, the newer models had advantages. But they no longer had aftertouch, or assignable outs, or the ability for a user to load their custom samples. Yamaha's newer CP models don't feel as good (to me) as the CP1/CP5 did. Roland's current 76-key non-hammer boards (DS76, FA-07, VR-730) don't feel as good as their previous Jupiter 50 or Jupiter 80, nor does their top-of-line (only) workstation (FA) have all the features of the earlier Fantoms (and in some cases lesser sounds as well). Even some older Casios had (IMO) better EP sounds and actions and ergonomics than some of their similarly-priced replacements. Outside of keyboards, there are many ways that Apple's newer Mac OS and application software has been made inferior to predecessors, etc. And I hated the move from incandescent to CFL light bulbs. And whose bright idea was changing from hard controls to touch screen for a car stereo, when you're not supposed to take your eyes off the road? No, tomorrow is not always better!


Last edited by anotherscott; 06/18/19 09:47 AM.
Re: Apps for controlling piano functions - a bad idea? [Re: anotherscott] #2859947
06/18/19 10:12 AM
06/18/19 10:12 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
A lot of iOS apps broke with the end of 32-bit support on iOS 11. There is essentially no longer any way to run those apps unless you own or can locate an older iOS device that has never been updated, which gets harder to find as Apple pushed updates pretty aggressively. Even if you keep an old iOS device around update to run your old apps, if it ever needs to be re-installed or serviced/replaced, you'll lose access to that version of the OS. Even if you find an old non-updated iOS device on eBay or whatever, you may not be able to load the app because old apps are often pulled from the app store, and Apple no longer supports local backup.

There are many ways to downgrade iOS on the iPad, although it's not perfect. Of course, if one is using an older iPad because of some old apps that have never been updated, one could jailbreak the device.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Apps for controlling piano functions - a bad idea? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2859953
06/18/19 10:28 AM
06/18/19 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Everything described in that article is something not available to most users in most circumstances. Even the concluding sentence of that article say, "after you do upgrade, it’s not generally possible to downgrade again."

Re: Apps for controlling piano functions - a bad idea? [Re: FrankCox] #2859970
06/18/19 10:51 AM
06/18/19 10:51 AM
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An app is a good idea if it can be regularly updated. An old app that languishes as abandonware and is eventually obsoleted by the platform, is a frustrating experience for the user. Digital pianos last 5-10 years. Those are epochs in mobile time, and I think manufacturers need to be ready to commit to support/maintenance for a good fraction of that time (e.g., will they port to Huawei OS, which we'll all be running in 3 years)?


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Apps for controlling piano functions - a bad idea? [Re: Gombessa] #2859980
06/18/19 11:09 AM
06/18/19 11:09 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 5,165
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
(e.g., will they port to Huawei OS, which we'll all be running in 3 years)?

shocked You mean the OS with the undocumented "Phone Home" feature? laugh


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Apps for controlling piano functions - a bad idea? [Re: FrankCox] #2859989
06/18/19 11:25 AM
06/18/19 11:25 AM
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Raleigh, North Carolina
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That's right. We don't want Huawei phones because they send our data to Xi Jinping.

No, we want iOS phones ... that send our data to Apple.
And Android phones ... that send our data to Google.

Yes sir, those are much better than Huawei. smile

Re: Apps for controlling piano functions - a bad idea? [Re: FrankCox] #2859996
06/18/19 11:33 AM
06/18/19 11:33 AM
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Apple at least makes some attempt to provide real privacy controls. The difference stems from the fact that Apple primarily makes their money selling you their phones. Google mostly gives the Android OS away for free because they mostly make their money from the data they collect.

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