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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2859246
06/16/19 04:01 PM
06/16/19 04:01 PM
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And as peace falls over the land once more, it is undoubtedly the perfect time to predict that the next ten years of developments will see great improvements for piano modelling, and very little for piano sampling.

Now, that could not possibly aggravate anything. wink


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28, Pianoteq 6.5 (Bechstein DG, Grotrian, Steinway D, K2), Garritan CFX Lite
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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Pete14] #2859248
06/16/19 04:02 PM
06/16/19 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
Since when did we start calling them pianos ‘acoustical’ (I’m looking at you, Tyrone). wink

Tyrone I am sure is enjoying this conversation but from a distance. Smart. Very smart.


Shigeru Kawai SK2 (2019), Kawai RX-2 (2007), Young Chang (1982), Kawai VPC-1 (2019), Yamaha P80 (2001), Korg C-50 (1995) , Roland Juno 1 (1988), Korg Poly 61 (1986), Lowrey Symphonic Holiday (1975)
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: QuasiUnaFantasia] #2859249
06/16/19 04:10 PM
06/16/19 04:10 PM
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Frédéric L Online content
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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
And as peace falls over the land once more, it is undoubtedly the perfect time to predict that the next ten years of developments will see great improvements for piano modelling, and very little for piano sampling.


We can predict the nowadays state of art sampling to be more widespread. Some synthesizer have unlooped samples (Krome ?). We may have digital pianos with such samples. But who knows when this will happen.

I guess that with a 100 levels VST (VSL Vienna Imperial), we are nearly at a maximum. (VSL Steinway and CFX have no such specifications published).


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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: QuasiUnaFantasia] #2859251
06/16/19 04:15 PM
06/16/19 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
And as peace falls over the land once more, it is undoubtedly the perfect time to predict that the next ten years of developments will see great improvements for piano modelling, and very little for piano sampling.

Now, that could not possibly aggravate anything. wink

LOL. Is this really the right time?


Shigeru Kawai SK2 (2019), Kawai RX-2 (2007), Young Chang (1982), Kawai VPC-1 (2019), Yamaha P80 (2001), Korg C-50 (1995) , Roland Juno 1 (1988), Korg Poly 61 (1986), Lowrey Symphonic Holiday (1975)
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2859252
06/16/19 04:16 PM
06/16/19 04:16 PM
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There’s currently no sample based software that uses modeled resonances. They either use damper down samples or convolution reverb. But there’s no modeled resonance similar to Yamaha VRM and Kawai’s whatever it’s called. How about having huge sampled libraries with VRM. That’s where they can go, the hybrid approach. I even suggested that to Philippe in one of our email conversations: collaborate with Garritan, VSL, etc to provide just the resonance modeling to the great samples. It would be the best of all worlds. Not sure Pianoteq are interested though. At least for now.


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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Frédéric L] #2859253
06/16/19 04:17 PM
06/16/19 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
And as peace falls over the land once more, it is undoubtedly the perfect time to predict that the next ten years of developments will see great improvements for piano modelling, and very little for piano sampling.


We can predict the nowadays state of art sampling to be more widespread. Some synthesizer have unlooped samples (Krome ?). We may have digital pianos with such samples. But who knows when this will happen.

I guess that with a 100 levels VST (VSL Vienna Imperial), we are nearly at a maximum. (VSL Steinway and CFX have no such specifications published).

and it's only 500 GB of data.


Shigeru Kawai SK2 (2019), Kawai RX-2 (2007), Young Chang (1982), Kawai VPC-1 (2019), Yamaha P80 (2001), Korg C-50 (1995) , Roland Juno 1 (1988), Korg Poly 61 (1986), Lowrey Symphonic Holiday (1975)
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Frédéric L] #2859254
06/16/19 04:17 PM
06/16/19 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
For exemple, the 2006 patent describe a calculus of a sum of exp(-t/tn).sin(wn.t). This is protected for 20 years, but can’t be protected again.

Math isn't protected by patents and never was. Only technical inventions are.

Patents were originally intended to allow disclosure of technical inventions for research purposes - primarily to allow others copying and building new inventions on it - while commercial exploitation is protected for a limited time.

Obviously most patents submitted nowadays are entirely useless for that purpose.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: CyberGene] #2859257
06/16/19 04:26 PM
06/16/19 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
There’s currently no sample based software that uses modeled resonances. They either use damper down samples or convolution reverb. But there’s no modeled resonance similar to Yamaha VRM and Kawai’s whatever it’s called.

Brute-force sampling doesn't make a good piano. Pure modeling doesn't as well. Software proudly started a "war" against specialized synth hardware and simply lost it. The rest is denial and how to deal with it. wink


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: JoeT] #2859258
06/16/19 04:26 PM
06/16/19 04:26 PM
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Tallahassee, FL
Chopin Acolyte Offline OP
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
For exemple, the 2006 patent describe a calculus of a sum of exp(-t/tn).sin(wn.t). This is protected for 20 years, but can’t be protected again.

Math isn't protected by patents and never was. Only technical inventions are.

Patents were originally intended to allow disclosure of technical inventions for research purposes - primarily to allow others copying and building new inventions on it - while commercial exploitation is protected for a limited time.

Obviously most patents submitted nowadays are entirely useless for that purpose.


Lol yeah, the idea of patenting Fourier series made me giggle. What's next? Are we going to patent derivatives and integrals? To heck with Newton and Leibniz! laugh

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: JoeT] #2859264
06/16/19 04:35 PM
06/16/19 04:35 PM
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Frédéric L Online content
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
For exemple, the 2006 patent describe a calculus of a sum of exp(-t/tn).sin(wn.t). This is protected for 20 years, but can’t be protected again.

Math isn't protected by patents and never was. Only technical inventions are.

Patents were originally intended to allow disclosure of technical inventions for research purposes - primarily to allow others copying and building new inventions on it - while commercial exploitation is protected for a limited time.

Obviously most patents submitted nowadays are entirely useless for that purpose.


Any new applied algorithm can be patented. We had GIF compression, RSA cypher algorithm, MP3 compression for example. Reyburn CyberTuner did patent its algorithms (one of them is the decomposition of the signal with digital bandpass filters : one per partials, mesuring the period of each of them with zero detection, full period count, 1/x in order to get the frequency).

It doesn’t matter that the arithmetics used (Z/nZ group for RSA...) were already known, what matter is that the formula is new.


As I have said, a patent is decomposed in claims, some quite general and some more precise. Perhaps general claims could be considered too obvious or already implemented elsewhere then invalid. In such case, other more precise claims can still be used to protect the invention. Then the sum of decaying sinus may not be the good example (too obvious ?), but the decomposition of “in factory” / other non real time / real time calculus may be better.

Read https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patent

Last edited by Frédéric L; 06/16/19 04:45 PM.

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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Frédéric L] #2859266
06/16/19 04:38 PM
06/16/19 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Some synthesizer have unlooped samples (Krome ?).

Yes, Korg has it on Krome and also Kronos, Grandstage, and Vox Continental (Vox is part of Korg). Another is the Kurzweil Forte.

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Frédéric L] #2859269
06/16/19 04:45 PM
06/16/19 04:45 PM
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JoeT Offline
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L

Any new applied algorithm can be patented.

Or not. Depends on who you ask.


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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: JoeT] #2859271
06/16/19 04:51 PM
06/16/19 04:51 PM
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Frédéric L Online content
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Frédéric L

Any new applied algorithm can be patented.

Or not. Depends on who you ask.

I have added the software patent link https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patent in my answer. There is the restriction of a “technical effect” (applied in my words). I suppose that since algorithm ARE patented, they CAN be.

Afterwards, is the patent consider valid and prevent other people to do the same. I suppose that if software patent weren’t valid, we won’t have so numerous software patent (why pay to register an invalid patent), and software patent troll would not be so dangerous.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 06/16/19 04:53 PM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Frédéric L] #2859274
06/16/19 04:58 PM
06/16/19 04:58 PM
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JoeT Offline
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
I suppose that if software patent weren’t valid, we won’t have so numerous software patent (why pay to register an invalid patent)

Why break the speed limit? laugh


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2859294
06/16/19 06:00 PM
06/16/19 06:00 PM
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UK
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Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Lol yeah, the idea of patenting Fourier series made me giggle. What's next?

About says it all. Does the phrase "What planet" have any significance? If so, what?

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: dire tonic] #2859320
06/16/19 07:22 PM
06/16/19 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by dire tonic
Originally Posted by johnstaf

Pianoteq can't distinguish between the different types of touch discussed in the article. It doesn't know if you slam it into the keybed or not. It gets a note-on message and a velocity irrespective of how the note is played.

Unless you believe it's possible to produce fff and beyond without slam (and by the same token, believe it's possible to simultaneously produce ppp and below while also slamming), you'd surely have to accept that slamming and velocity are highly correlated? i.e. Pianoteq distinguishes by virtue of key velocity.

Both modelled and sampled approaches can reproduce slamming if developers take the trouble to model/record appropriately.


I was referring to an article about pianists being able to distinguish between notes of a similar velocity but played differently, such as hitting the keybed.

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2859433
06/17/19 03:58 AM
06/17/19 03:58 AM
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Suprised I haven't been panned, every right to have been...apology required. Sorry for my last post. Driven by nothing more than Acolyte's--impulse.
I forgot a fundamental--plenty of other threads on this board, that don't contain this stuff! Don't need to feel excluded, in a particular one.
blush blush

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2859501
06/17/19 09:07 AM
06/17/19 09:07 AM
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Jethro Offline
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Back to the original poster.

Chopin Acolyte here is the thread that I started in my search for a digital in the $2500 and under range. It took a lot of turns but the P515 was on my shortlist but once I tried the VPC-1's action I knew it would suffice and it was at the right price point for me. Never got a chance to try the P515 but give it a go for yourself, but since you are looking in the same price range as I and was already considering the VPC-1 and Pianoteq I thought I would chime in because that is the exact set-up I have.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2841563/1.html

You could see I spent money on both the Ravenscroft app AND software before settling with Pianoteq as my go to software. (I gave both samples and modeled software equal chance to impress me). Seems like there were much of the same arguments on your thread as there were on mine.

Last edited by Jethro; 06/17/19 09:17 AM.

Shigeru Kawai SK2 (2019), Kawai RX-2 (2007), Young Chang (1982), Kawai VPC-1 (2019), Yamaha P80 (2001), Korg C-50 (1995) , Roland Juno 1 (1988), Korg Poly 61 (1986), Lowrey Symphonic Holiday (1975)
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Jethro] #2859551
06/17/19 12:05 PM
06/17/19 12:05 PM
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Tallahassee, FL
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Originally Posted by Jethro
Back to the original poster.

Chopin Acolyte here is the thread that I started in my search for a digital in the $2500 and under range. It took a lot of turns but the P515 was on my shortlist but once I tried the VPC-1's action I knew it would suffice and it was at the right price point for me. Never got a chance to try the P515 but give it a go for yourself, but since you are looking in the same price range as I and was already considering the VPC-1 and Pianoteq I thought I would chime in because that is the exact set-up I have.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2841563/1.html

You could see I spent money on both the Ravenscroft app AND software before settling with Pianoteq as my go to software. (I gave both samples and modeled software equal chance to impress me). Seems like there were much of the same arguments on your thread as there were on mine.


What I really pity right now is, that if I won't like the P-515's action, there won't be enough time to return it and get the money back to buy VPC-1, which is now available for a very good price, however the sale ends on 22nd. smirk AAAAAAAAA

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2859554
06/17/19 12:18 PM
06/17/19 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte

What I really pity right now is, that if I won't like the P-515's action, there won't be enough time to return it and get the money back to buy VPC-1, which is now available for a very good price, however the sale ends on 22nd. smirk AAAAAAAAA

https://tamebay.com/2019/06/paradox-of-choice-effect-combat-shoppers-indecision.html


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