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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Jethro #2859208 06/16/19 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Philippe, so let me rephrase my question. Have you found a way to create a 100% physical modeling of a piano that works on current computers and so there’s no need for more powerful computer? Do you think that you’ve reached the utmost realism and there’s nothing left to improve with Pianoteq anymore? It won’t benefit from much more powerful computers in the future and there’s no tiny detail you’ve left un-modeled?


I have an answer for that. It's called buying an acoustical piano. I would assume as time goes on they try to improve their product to produce as much realism as possible given today's computer constraints or maybe in Pianoteq's case today's computer advances because of overhead required by Pianoteq as we have all seen is relatively minimal. I'm running it on a 2011 mac mini without a hiccup. But from what I read the piano sounds we hear from from update 6.0 are even better than the 5.0 versions. But neither sampled sounds nor modeled sounds exactly provide the "utmost realism" yet though Pianoteq appears to be quite in the lead in creating a product that more accurately simulates how an acoustical piano actually behaves.

Well, I wanted Philippe to answer that because that was a technical question. Yours is a personal (biased) opinion. To answer with the same personal biased opinion, I’ve been fascinated with physical modeling from the very first time Pianoteq was released (13 years ago?) and followed it closely hoping it will ultimately overtake sampled pianos. I’ve been invited to be a Pianoteq beta tester a few years ago and thanks to Philippe I also have Pianoteq Pro. However honestly I almost never used it since I found and still find sample based pianos more playable and more convincing. And I can only keep faith in Pianoteq knowing that they have, say, 80% modeling coverage but still have what to model or improve. Otherwise I’ll be rather disappointed frown Because on paper physical modeling should be better than what it actually is. And again, that’s a personal opinion.


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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
CyberGene #2859211 06/16/19 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Philippe, so let me rephrase my question. Have you found a way to create a 100% physical modeling of a piano that works on current computers and so there’s no need for more powerful computer? Do you think that you’ve reached the utmost realism and there’s nothing left to improve with Pianoteq anymore? It won’t benefit from much more powerful computers in the future and there’s no tiny detail you’ve left un-modeled?


I have an answer for that. It's called buying an acoustical piano. I would assume as time goes on they try to improve their product to produce as much realism as possible given today's computer constraints or maybe in Pianoteq's case today's computer advances because of overhead required by Pianoteq as we have all seen is relatively minimal. I'm running it on a 2011 mac mini without a hiccup. But from what I read the piano sounds we hear from from update 6.0 are even better than the 5.0 versions. But neither sampled sounds nor modeled sounds exactly provide the "utmost realism" yet though Pianoteq appears to be quite in the lead in creating a product that more accurately simulates how an acoustical piano actually behaves.

Well, I wanted Philippe to answer that because that was a technical question. Yours is a personal (biased) opinion. To answer with the same personal biased opinion, I’ve been fascinated with physical modeling from the very first time Pianoteq was released (13 years ago?) and followed it closely hoping it will ultimately overtake sampled pianos. I’ve been invited to be a Pianoteq beta tester a few years ago and thanks to Philippe I also have Pianoteq Pro. However honestly I almost never used it since I found and still find sample based pianos more playable and more convincing. And I can only keep faith in Pianoteq knowing that they have, say, 80% modeling coverage but still have what to model or improve. Otherwise I’ll be rather disappointed frown Because on paper physical modeling should be better than what it actually is. And again, that’s a personal opinion.

Well, he kinda answered it the same way. Not much technical garble to understand there. And good for you to beta test such a great product. You're entitled to your opinions. In my 40+ years of playing the piano I'm saying this thing is the greatest invention since sliced bread. Let the user trust their ears and senses. If you want, I could take that Pro version off your hands smile

Last edited by Jethro; 06/16/19 03:06 PM.

Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Chopin: G Minor Ballade
Schumann/Liszt Widmung

Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
pianophil #2859212 06/16/19 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by pianophil
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Philippe, so let me rephrase my question. Have you found a way to create a 100% physical modeling of a piano that works on current computers and so there’s no need for more powerful computer? Do you think that you’ve reached the utmost realism and there’s nothing left to improve with Pianoteq anymore? It won’t benefit from much more powerful computers in the future and there’s no tiny detail you’ve left un-modeled?


Cybergene, when we started this project 16 years ago (3 years before first public release), the most exciting thing was that I knew we had in front of us an infinite path on which to progress. No blocking wall, nothing to stop you improving the sound as your knowledge and know-how increase and the computers get more and more performant. Imagine a world where perfection would be reached: how boring would it be. We are really lucky.

Thanks for this honest answer smile See my answer above. I prefer thinking there’s way to improve Pianoteq rather than seeing only praises from some zealots (apologies for the word but that’s the truth) who’s been saying all is perfect while my ears tell me otherwise. And you know whose I trust more smile


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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
CyberGene #2859214 06/16/19 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by pianophil
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Philippe, so let me rephrase my question. Have you found a way to create a 100% physical modeling of a piano that works on current computers and so there’s no need for more powerful computer? Do you think that you’ve reached the utmost realism and there’s nothing left to improve with Pianoteq anymore? It won’t benefit from much more powerful computers in the future and there’s no tiny detail you’ve left un-modeled?


Cybergene, when we started this project 16 years ago (3 years before first public release), the most exciting thing was that I knew we had in front of us an infinite path on which to progress. No blocking wall, nothing to stop you improving the sound as your knowledge and know-how increase and the computers get more and more performant. Imagine a world where perfection would be reached: how boring would it be. We are really lucky.

Thanks for this honest answer smile See my answer above. I prefer thinking there’s way to improve Pianoteq rather than seeing only praises from some zealots (apologies for the word but that’s the truth) who’s been saying all is perfect while my ears tell me otherwise. And you know whose I trust more smile

Ahhhh.. And yet I read post after post that those so called "zealots" saying that Pianoteq was not perfect but only in their opinion the best representation of an acoustical piano in digital form today. Who exactly is the zealot, eh? Personally I came here to help a fellow poster out in his quest for a new digital piano. I recommended Pianoteq and a VPC-1. Yet it seems that every time someone makes such as recommendation it is met with such hostility. What gives?

Last edited by Jethro; 06/16/19 03:15 PM.

Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Chopin: G Minor Ballade
Schumann/Liszt Widmung

Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Jethro #2859216 06/16/19 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Philippe, so let me rephrase my question. Have you found a way to create a 100% physical modeling of a piano that works on current computers and so there’s no need for more powerful computer? Do you think that you’ve reached the utmost realism and there’s nothing left to improve with Pianoteq anymore? It won’t benefit from much more powerful computers in the future and there’s no tiny detail you’ve left un-modeled?


I have an answer for that. It's called buying an acoustical piano. I would assume as time goes on they try to improve their product to produce as much realism as possible given today's computer constraints or maybe in Pianoteq's case today's computer advances because of overhead required by Pianoteq as we have all seen is relatively minimal. I'm running it on a 2011 mac mini without a hiccup. But from what I read the piano sounds we hear from from update 6.0 are even better than the 5.0 versions. But neither sampled sounds nor modeled sounds exactly provide the "utmost realism" yet though Pianoteq appears to be quite in the lead in creating a product that more accurately simulates how an acoustical piano actually behaves.

Well, I wanted Philippe to answer that because that was a technical question. Yours is a personal (biased) opinion. To answer with the same personal biased opinion, I’ve been fascinated with physical modeling from the very first time Pianoteq was released (13 years ago?) and followed it closely hoping it will ultimately overtake sampled pianos. I’ve been invited to be a Pianoteq beta tester a few years ago and thanks to Philippe I also have Pianoteq Pro. However honestly I almost never used it since I found and still find sample based pianos more playable and more convincing. And I can only keep faith in Pianoteq knowing that they have, say, 80% modeling coverage but still have what to model or improve. Otherwise I’ll be rather disappointed frown Because on paper physical modeling should be better than what it actually is. And again, that’s a personal opinion.

Well, he kinda answered it the same way. Not much technical garble to understand there. And good for you to beta test such a great product. You're entitled to your opinions. In my 40+ years of playing the piano I'm saying this thing is the greatest invention since sliced bread. Let the user trust their ears and senses. If you want, I could take that Pro version off your hands smile

No, he answered in entirely different way. It’s good thing you’re not trying to sell me Pianoteq because I wouldn’t buy it laugh Nothing personal.


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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Chopin Acolyte #2859217 06/16/19 03:13 PM
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I'm sure many people would buy Pianoteq with all your "positive" feedback on the product eh? But then again, maybe I'm just talking to a radio.

Last edited by Jethro; 06/16/19 03:16 PM.

Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Chopin: G Minor Ballade
Schumann/Liszt Widmung

Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Jethro #2859218 06/16/19 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Jethro
I'm sure many people would buy Pianoteq with all "positive" feedback on the product.

Yes but not those who heard your pitch. You’re being too persuasive with no facts, just bolstering such as how great pianist you are and people need to just trust you. That’s a strategy working for selling ball pens on the street. I hope you’ll take this as a well wishing critique and not as an insult.


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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
CyberGene #2859220 06/16/19 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Jethro
I'm sure many people would buy Pianoteq with all "positive" feedback on the product.

Yes but not those who heard your pitch. You’re being too persuasive with no facts, just bolstering such as how great pianist you are and people need to just trust you. That’s a strategy working for selling ball pens on the street. I hope you’ll take this as a well wishing critique and not as an insult.

Or maybe you're just being a wee bit too sensitive. Like I said, never wished anyone ill will here. You really need to back off some of the rants and let people help each out without unsolicited negative comments. I came here for help 2 months ago in my purchase of a digital piano. So many here were helpful and I'm grateful for it. I just wanted to return the favor. No bad intentions here. And as for "great pianist I am" - yeah I wish. I'm working on it.

Also I don't think the inventor of Pianoteq would have entered this conversation if a certain person had his "facts" straight.

Last edited by Jethro; 06/16/19 03:27 PM.

Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Chopin: G Minor Ballade
Schumann/Liszt Widmung

Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Jethro #2859222 06/16/19 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Jethro
Is it required to update patents?


Patents doesn’t have to be updated. The Modartt patent doesn’t prevent Modartt to do something a little different, but only prevent someone else to do something similar.

Like any patent, it is divided in claims, from general claims to more and more precise claims. If some precise claims doesn’t apply anymore to the design of Pianoteq, a concurrent piano software like Pianoteq will be still prevented because of more general claims.

Modartt can also submit a new patent, but only new claims will be protected. For exemple, the 2006 patent describe a calculus of a sum of exp(-t/tn).sin(wn.t). This is protected for 20 years, but can’t be protected again.

The other way is to keep secret the “things Modartt has learnt since 2006”... and hope this will not be learnt by concurrent piano software designers.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 06/16/19 03:27 PM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Frédéric L #2859224 06/16/19 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Originally Posted by Jethro
Is it required to update patents?


Patents doesn’t have to be updated. The Modartt patent doesn’t prevent Modartt to do something a little different, but only prevent someone else to do something similar.

Like any patent, it is divided in claims, from general claims to more and more precise claims. If some precise claims doesn’t apply anymore to the design of Pianoteq, a concurrent piano software like Pianoteq will be still prevented because of more general claims.

Modartt can also submit a new patent, but only new claims will be protected. For exemple, the 2006 patent describe a calculus if a sum of exp(-t/tn).sin(wn.t). This is protected for 20 years, but can’t be protected again.

The other way is to keep secret the “things Modartt has learnt since 2006”... and hope this will not be learnt by concurrent piano software designers.

I see. Thanks.


Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Chopin: G Minor Ballade
Schumann/Liszt Widmung

Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Chopin Acolyte #2859225 06/16/19 03:27 PM
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You joined the forum a few months ago having no experience with digital pianos or software. Then you admitted of deciding on VPC1 and Pianoteq just because you read about that on the Internet and you started praising that combination before you even received your VPC1. And you admitted that’s a common thing in your decision making in life. Also, you dismissed a sample based piano on playing it through spring loaded MIDI action by playing Happy Birthday, that were your words.

And now you’re “helping” people. I mean, no disrespect, but that’s wrong. That’s why I find it useful to bring balance by pushing the scales to the other side.


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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
CyberGene #2859229 06/16/19 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
You joined the forum a few months ago having no experience with digital pianos or software. Then you admitted of deciding on VPC1 and Pianoteq just because you read about that on the Internet and you started praising that combination before you even received your VPC1. And you admitted that’s a common thing in your decision making in life. Also, you dismissed a sample based piano on playing it through spring loaded MIDI action by playing Happy Birthday, that were your words.

And now you’re “helping” people. I mean, no disrespect, but that’s wrong. That’s why I find it useful to bring balance by pushing the scales to the other side.


And if you read the rest of my posts you would see I have more than 30 years experience with MIDI including working in a professional studio until I left and went back to strictly acoustic because of my disgust at that time with the state of the digital piano. But why let facts get in the way eh?

And you know what there are people out their who conceive of things without ever having had their hands on it apriori. I built a medical laboratory for a major university that way. I built my medical practice that way. And guess what, I bet Philip built Pianoteq that way. Amazing thing what our brains can do.

Last edited by Jethro; 06/16/19 03:37 PM.

Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Chopin: G Minor Ballade
Schumann/Liszt Widmung

Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Chopin Acolyte #2859235 06/16/19 03:40 PM
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Pianoteq will soon render acoustic pianos obsolete. That’s how good it is.
And yes, I agree with Jethro: ‘Pianoteq is the best thing since sliced bread.’
It’s only a matter of time for a Nobel Prize to grace its creators.
I’m not a zealot, but I do find myself thanking God (Pianoteq) for all it gives me everyday.

I stand in front of thee, in awe of thee, and humbled by thee, Pianoteq!

I’m not a zealot (whatever the heck that means). laugh

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Chopin Acolyte #2859236 06/16/19 03:42 PM
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Yeah, you’re great, Jethro! I guess that’s a good argument.

Last edited by CyberGene; 06/16/19 03:43 PM.

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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
CyberGene #2859238 06/16/19 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Yeah, you’re great, Jethro! I guess that’s a good argument.

Whatever......


Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Chopin: G Minor Ballade
Schumann/Liszt Widmung

Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
CyberGene #2859239 06/16/19 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
For the sake of argument, 40 MB equates to around 8 minutes of lossless audio.

And there are plenty of fully implemented sampled pianos that consist of far less than 40 mb of data. The once lauded (and pretty advanced for its time) Kurzweil Triple Strike was a whopping 12 mb. Other pianos have been even less than that. (The Korg M1 had 4 mb of samples, not for its piano, but for all its sounds combined!)

Originally Posted by Jethro
Is it required to update patents?

No, a patent is a patent, it never changes, you can't retroactively change what it is you're protecting from infringement. If you develop something new that you believe is also patentable, you can apply for a separate patent on that new thing. (That new thing can be based on one or your earlier patents... but it is still separate.)

Originally Posted by Zaphod
Originally Posted by Jethro
Where did you read that concert pianists can only achieve 10 or so velocities per key?
I didn't read it, I saw it : ... Around the 7:50 mark.

That looks pretty silly to me. It just shows that anyone can put anything on youtube. ;-) First, just because he can't create a level between 5 and 6 (or whatever), that doesn't mean no one could. Moreover, I bet he actually could... if he did a 20 note crescendo from quietest to loudest, maybe not each of the twenty would be terribly different from its adjacent strikes, but I bet he would hit additional velocities between the ones he struck there. And that's the bigger point. There are only 8-10 possible velocities? Okay, try MIDI-mapping your DP so that strikes 1-13 all map to velocity 7, 13-24 all map to velocity 19, 25-37 all map to 31, and so forth, or whatever mapping you like that reduces all your velocity inputs to only one of eight-to-ten outputs, and see how natural that is to play and how smooth your gradual crescendos are... or conversely, watch what happens when you try not to change a repeated note, and a small variation suddenly makes the note very noticeably louder or softer...

Short version: If you can hear a difference between two adjacent values, you don't have enough values.

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Chopin Acolyte #2859240 06/16/19 03:51 PM
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Guys, are we still having a little fun here?

What matters is that we’re all inspired by the digital realm in a way that was not possible before. We are practicing and getting better everyday without the need for an ‘acoustical’.

Namaste!

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
anotherscott #2859241 06/16/19 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by CyberGene
For the sake of argument, 40 MB equates to around 8 minutes of lossless audio.

And there are plenty of fully implemented sampled pianos that consist of far less than 40 mb of data. The once lauded (and pretty advanced for its time) Kurzweil Triple Strike was a whopping 12 mb. Other pianos have been even less than that. (The Korg M1 had 4 mb of samples, not for its piano, but for all its sounds combined!)

Originally Posted by Jethro
Is it required to update patents?

No, a patent is a patent, it never changes, you can't retroactively change what it is you're protecting from infringement. If you develop something new that you believe is also patentable, you can apply for a separate patent on that new thing. (That new thing can be based on one or your earlier patents... but it is still separate.)

Originally Posted by Zaphod
Originally Posted by Jethro
Where did you read that concert pianists can only achieve 10 or so velocities per key?
I didn't read it, I saw it : ... Around the 7:50 mark.

That looks pretty silly to me. It just shows that anyone can put anything on youtube. ;-) First, just because he can't create a level between 5 and 6 (or whatever), that doesn't mean no one could. Moreover, I bet he actually could... if he did a 20 note crescendo from quietest to loudest, maybe not each of the twenty would be terribly different from its adjacent strikes, but I bet he would hit additional velocities between the ones he struck there. And that's the bigger point. There are only 8-10 possible velocities? Okay, try MIDI-mapping your DP so that strikes 1-13 all map to velocity 7, 13-24 all map to velocity 19, 25-37 all map to 31, and so forth, or whatever mapping you like that reduces all your velocity inputs to only one of eight-to-ten outputs, and see how natural that is to play and how smooth your gradual crescendos are... or conversely, watch what happens when you try not to change a repeated note, and a small variation suddenly makes the note very noticeably louder or softer...

Short version: If you can hear a difference between two adjacent values, you don't have enough values.


I see regarding patents. As for the rest of your post I agree. Thanks.


Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Chopin: G Minor Ballade
Schumann/Liszt Widmung

Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Pete14 #2859242 06/16/19 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
Guys, are we still having a little fun here?

What matters is that we’re all inspired by the digital realm in a way that was not possible before. We are practicing and getting better everyday without the need for an ‘acoustical’.

Namaste!




Wait a minute! That's not what I'm saying smile

You absolutely owe it to yourself to eventually advance to an acoustical. That my friend, is still the ideal!


Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Chopin: G Minor Ballade
Schumann/Liszt Widmung

Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)
Chopin Acolyte #2859243 06/16/19 03:57 PM
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Since when did we start calling them pianos ‘acoustical’ (I’m looking at you, Tyrone). wink

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