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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2858578
06/14/19 03:51 PM
06/14/19 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Okay, here's what I did, being the crazy me...

I ordered Yamaha P-515 from <a nation-wide business with a branch in my city, with the name similar to...uh... centrum for guitars>.

Since it's a slab and probably in a warehouse near my city, the shipping is free.

They have free returns so if I don't like it, I can take it back in the shop in original packaging. I will know this within a couple of hours messing around with it.

Whether I like it or not, I will post the result here. Especially for JoeT who seemed very insistent on it.

Good for you man! Give it a go!

Last edited by Jethro; 06/14/19 03:52 PM.
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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2858583
06/14/19 04:04 PM
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Absolutely, really look forward to your views on the Yammy P-151.

Paul


Kemble Compact Acoustic Piano, Yamaha CVP 709 Polished White, Pianoteq Standard, Galaxy Vintage D.
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Groove On] #2858595
06/14/19 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Groove On
Yes your experience is normal. Digital pianos are not acoustic pianos. Get your hands on as many DPs as you can until you find one that is good enough for what you want to do. If none of them can pass your standards, stick with an acoustic piano.
[...]


My experience as well. I've gotten used to telling myself when trying out a DP if a model is close enough to an acoustic piano that I like before considering other aspects, e.g. price, weight, etc.


--
Roland FP-30, Yamaha CP73, Nektar Impact LX88+ on Cantabile
Previously: Yamaha P-115 (two years)
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: JoeT] #2858599
06/14/19 05:08 PM
06/14/19 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
. . .You should demo Clavinova, Avant Grand, Concert Artist, Novus and Roland's offerings above 2,000 bucks. This gives you a good impression of what to look for in a digital piano. If a dealer doesn't carry these models, go to another one. Bring good headphones as well.

Then you check the following models in your price range for yourself:

Kawai ES8
Roland FP-90
Yamaha P-515

Talk in a forum full of computer nerds won't lead you anywhere. wink


Sensible advice. It won't help you compare a VPC1 + Pianoteq to any of the stand-alone DP's, though.

I like Pianoteq, but I'm no "golden ears" about piano tone or touch. The FP-90 I tried, with boosted string resonance, felt and sounded pretty good to me.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2858603
06/14/19 05:12 PM
06/14/19 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte

Whether I like it or not, I will post the result here. Especially for JoeT who seemed very insistent on it.

I was insistent on you trying out a lot stuff, not ordering what I prefer. Because your preferences might be entirely different.

Just one note: The pedal bundled with the P-515 is an on/off switch. If you didn't order the stand and three-pedal option with it, you should get the continuous damper pedal.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: JoeT] #2858606
06/14/19 05:18 PM
06/14/19 05:18 PM
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Chopin Acolyte Online content OP
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Originally Posted by JoeT

I was insistent on you trying out a lot stuff, not ordering what I prefer. Because your preferences might be entirely different.

Just one note: The pedal bundled with the P-515 is an on/off switch. If you didn't order the stand and three-pedal option with it, you should get the continuous damper pedal.


Nope, I ordered just the slab, in case I don't like it and need to return it. I will test out only the action and sound itself (including resonance, but without the pedal). If I like it I will order a stand and a triple pedal unit.

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: MacMacMac] #2858607
06/14/19 05:18 PM
06/14/19 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
No exceptions.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think MacMacMac is insinuating that the sounds made by Pianoteq are not "piano sounds" with the exception of Steinway D (Classical), Steingraeber (E-272), and the Ant Petrof (Prelude) virtual instruments..


Well, I'll just say that your words here make it seem like these are more pianos than my words on my old FP30. wink

Originally Posted by pianophil
7 - Pianoteq - Steinway D (Classical)
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
7 - Not too bad, but not as good as 5.
8 - Pianoteq - Steingraeber (E-272)
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
8 - Sounds good, but it lacks stereo spread.
10 - Pianoteq - Ant Petrof (Prelude)
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
10 - Refreshing after hearing those veiled, muffled pianos. But the sound placement moves around oddly.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
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Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2858684
06/15/19 12:19 AM
06/15/19 12:19 AM
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Today I practiced on the Steinway grand again and I think I know why it handles like a truck.

We know that the main mechanism that propagates pianist's signal (pressing the key) to the hammer is seesaw, i.e. a long piece of wood on a balance pin. Now I looked inside and I guess since it's a grand piano with long strings and we want to produce big sound, also the hammer must be bigger (heavier).

However, if that's the case, then the other end (key) needs to be counter-balanced, otherwise we would need too much force to even statically hold the key down. Indeed, when I looked from the side at some keys, the have holes in the wood and I suspect there might be something heavier than wood inside to provide about 50g of total force needed to statically press the key down. But that's not the end of the story. I distinguish between "static force" (take a stack of coins and start placing them on a key, one by one. Stop when the key starts to go down and weigh the coins needed for the key to go down) and "dynamic force". The second concept is related to the original weight of the whole mechanism that, in the end, moves the hammer.

Imagine this: take a seesaw and place 10 pounds on each side. Now place 1 more pound on one of the sides. How much force does it take to push the seesaw down on the other side? 1 pound. Now change the original 10 pounds to 100 pounds. The required force to push it down is still 1 pound, however, the overall speed at which you push it down is much slower, due to the mass you have to accelerate (a = F/m, bigger m means bigger F required to produce the same acceleration a). This is what I call dynamic force.

Now back to the piano: let's say we want to produce mf dynamic on a certain key. The dynamic is produced at a certain velocity just when the key passes some specific point on its way down. The velocity is integral of acceleration, and let's assume the acceleration is constant (force is constant and for the sake of simplicity, observed mass of the key does not change on the way down, that is, until we get to the escapement). Therefore a = F/m and v = a*t, where t is the time since we started pressing the key. The amount we moved the key down at time t is d = (1/2) a*t^2 and let's say the point at which hammer strikes the string is d0, therefore the time it took us to get there is t = sqrt(2d0/a). This gives us the velocity v = sqrt (2 d0 a) = sqrt(2*d0*F/m). Now we see that if the whole seesaw has more mass on its ends, it takes more force to get to the desired velocity.

What I'm not quite sure about is this: if I increase mass M of the hammer, and strike the string with the same velocity v0, wouldn't that produce more sound? Therefore it seems like two opposing phenomena: increasing mass requires more force to accelerate the hammer, but at the same time, less velocity is needed to produce the same volume...I might be wrong here and it all depends only on velocity of the hammer, no matter its mass, but then...why did we have to put heavier hammers in a bigger piano in the first place?

I'm sure there are many more details to this, e.g. the observed mass of the key changes on the way down (it certainly does at the escapement), the mass of the action on the other side of the key depends on the construction and hammer contributes only partially, there might be complicated curve of loudness of the tone vs velocity and mass that stroke the string, which needs to be accounted for, so this whole thing might be difficult to model theoretically and the corresponding integrals might not be expressible in closed form...

But if the main factor indeed is hammer weight (and corresponding counterweight in keys so that the overall static force is about 50g to push down a key), can digital pianos be modified so that more mass is added both to hammers and keys so it feels like a truck, too? ^_^

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2858690
06/15/19 01:10 AM
06/15/19 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
... the other end (key) needs to be counter-balanced ...

Traditionally, the weight used to counter-balance the key is called the "Pianist". Any decently designed and maintained piano needs one of these "Pianists" to operate properly. wink


We are the music makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams.
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2858693
06/15/19 01:24 AM
06/15/19 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
... can digital pianos be modified so that more mass is added both to hammers and keys so it feels like a truck, too? ^_^

You can add weight and also adjust the software to make it feel "heavier".

But if you do that, make sure the "Auto-Adjust" setting on your "Pianist" is ON or it will sound funny. You can find Auto-Adjust in Settings under Technique > Touch. If your "Pianist" is still having problems, check if your "Pianist" can be upgraded, usually an In-App purchase.

grin (yes it's one of those silly days ...)



... and just a touch more sarcasm to bring it back on topic .. What DPs really lack compared to Acoustics is a good "Pianist" laugh


We are the music makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams.
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2858694
06/15/19 01:25 AM
06/15/19 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte


But if the main factor indeed is hammer weight (and corresponding counterweight in keys so that the overall static force is about 50g to push down a key), can digital pianos be modified so that more mass is added both to hammers and keys so it feels like a truck, too? ^_^


I'm planning to do this. I don't know which digital to do it with. Either my Roland FP-90 or Kawai MP10. I think the Roland would be perfect if it had more weight in the bass. I want to make the hammers heavier, and then add counterweights to offset this. A concert grand can be like pushing two sumo wrestlers on a seesaw as opposed to two little girls -well maybe that's an exaggeration. This is increased dynamic touch weight, though they have the same static touch weight.

It requires very little mass at the hammer to increase weight at the key, as the leverage is almost 5:1. i.e. the hammer travels roughly 45mm for around 9.5 mm of key travel. That's why you have lead in the keys to counteract the weight of the hammers, which aren't really heavy.

Last edited by johnstaf; 06/15/19 01:33 AM.
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2858696
06/15/19 01:34 AM
06/15/19 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Groove On
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
... the other end (key) needs to be counter-balanced ...

Traditionally, the weight used to counter-balance the key is called the "Pianist". Any decently designed and maintained piano needs one of these "Pianists" to operate properly. wink


Uh...so, for example, this image is fabricated? https://hartzlerpianos.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/IMG_0238.jpg because I can clearly see lead inside the keys. I'm sure it's for the balance.

Last edited by Chopin Acolyte; 06/15/19 01:40 AM.
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2858702
06/15/19 02:09 AM
06/15/19 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Uh...so, for example, this image is fabricated? https://hartzlerpianos.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/IMG_0238.jpg because I can clearly see lead inside the keys. I'm sure it's for the balance.

I was "trying to be funny" and obviously failed. The bigger point is that, yes you can add weights to make the keys heavier but it's more about controlling the weight of your back/arms and hands - not so much about whether the keys are weighted, super-weighted or non-weighted.

To use your example of a see-saw with 100 pound weights. It's the lever you use to push the see-saw that's important, not the weight of the see-saw. A baseball bat as a lever won't move those 100 pound weights, but a heavy girder will push the see-saw down very easily. In the case of playing the piano, our bodies are like heavy girders pushing the see-saw down. We have more than enough body weight to move the keys - it's more about controlling the weight to get a pleasing result.


We are the music makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams.
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2858703
06/15/19 02:24 AM
06/15/19 02:24 AM
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OK -- you understand the difference between "downweight" (how much force is needed to start the key moving) and "inertia" (the resistance the key has when you try to increase its velocity). That's important, and often ignored here.

Quote
. . . What I'm not quite sure about is this: if I increase mass M of the hammer, and strike the string with the same velocity v0, wouldn't that produce more sound? Therefore it seems like two opposing phenomena: increasing mass requires more force to accelerate the hammer, but at the same time, less velocity is needed to produce the same volume...I might be wrong here and it all depends only on velocity of the hammer, no matter its mass, but then...why did we have to put heavier hammers in a bigger piano in the first place?


To get more sound, you must increase the amount of _energy_ that the hammer transfers to the string.

Let's say (for simplification) that the hammer transfers _all_ of its kinetic energy to the string. The amount of energy available:

. . . (mass of hammer) * (velocity of hammer)**2 (sorry -- I can't find a "superscript" here, to write a proper "squared" sign)

So either the hammer must move faster, or it must be made heavier.

. . . Either way, the pianist must work harder.

There's no way the hammer can deliver more energy than the player puts into it!

Now, if you can increase the _efficiency_ of the hammer-to-string energy transfer, the pianist gets to play louder without using more energy in his fingers. How might you do that?

. . . larger soundboard

. . . harder hammer (but that changes tone quality, and is undesirable, and doesn't necessarily increase efficiency).

A larger soundboard (e.g. a grand, instead of an upright or console) will have longer strings to match its size.

My guess (you might post a question in the "Techs and Tuners" forum) is that, to transfer energy _efficiently_ to a heavier string (heavier, because it's longer), you must use a heavier hammer.

. . . but I don't know that for sure.

The appearance of carbon-fiber-containing actions (in acoustic grands) gives a hint that this "pianist-energy-to-string-energy efficiency" really matters. The less energy that you waste, accelerating the parts of the action _except_ the hammer, the easier the piano will be to play. So people will pay big bucks to shave some grams (and gain some rigidity = less energy loss) in the bits and pieces. Ideally, you want _all_ the mass (and inertia) to be in the hammer, and nothing in the keys or other bits.

None of this will really help you, when you sit down to evaluate an action. It either feels good to you, or it doesn't. You can fiddle some with "touch" settings, velocity curves, dynamic range (in some virtual pianos -- I don't know if that's filtered-down to normal DP's). But ultimately, you close your eyes and ask:

. . . "Could I be playing an acoustic piano, now -- or is this obviously a simulation ?"


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2858704
06/15/19 02:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
But if the main factor indeed is hammer weight (and corresponding counterweight in keys so that the overall static force is about 50g to push down a key), can digital pianos be modified so that more mass is added both to hammers and keys so it feels like a truck, too? ^_^

Don't worry. The action of the Yamaha piano you just ordered is considered "heavy" by most people. Unlike Kawai actions the static weight is pretty high, which is typical for Yamaha actions, while the dynamic weight is the same as for every digital piano.

So you can look forward to your "truck". laugh


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: JoeT] #2858706
06/15/19 02:53 AM
06/15/19 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
But if the main factor indeed is hammer weight (and corresponding counterweight in keys so that the overall static force is about 50g to push down a key), can digital pianos be modified so that more mass is added both to hammers and keys so it feels like a truck, too? ^_^

Don't worry. The action of the Yamaha piano you just ordered is considered "heavy" by most people. Unlike Kawai actions the static weight is pretty high, which is typical for Yamaha actions, while the dynamic weight is the same as for every digital piano.

So you can look forward to your "truck". laugh


Lol. I love truck-ey pianos, as I'm used to them, it seems like I can control even-ness of phrasing and dynamics better. But I'm sure if was used more to light actions I would be more comfortable with them. I admire pianists who have so much experience that they can switch between very different actions and don't have any problems. It's almost like giving someone with a 9-5 office job suddenly re-stocking duties, lifting heavy boxes...not a true analogy, since piano is not supposed to be a "labour", but some amount of force is required (and that amount depends on the heaviness of the action), one cannot really cheat physics. (just my opinion, don't kill me. also, switching from a heavy action to a lighter but "real" (acoustic, upright perhaps) action seems like fun initially, everything is super easy and quick, but after some time, switching back to a heavy action feels laborious)

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2858711
06/15/19 03:39 AM
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Well I'm off to play on a concert grade Yamaha grand piano for the first time in my life. I have a Casio AP-470 and I suspect there will be a world of difference in the actions.

All this discussion I have been following will be made real to some small extent by being able to do a physical comparison.


Mendelssohn Song without Words Op19,2 and 19,6, Jensen Sehnsucht Op8,5. Chopin Nocturne C# Minor. Schumann Hasche Mann from Kinderszenen Op15,3. https://soundcloud.com/sheffieldkevin
DP: Casio Celviano AP-470. HP: Superlux HD681 EVO
Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: KevinM] #2858720
06/15/19 04:25 AM
06/15/19 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinM
Well I'm off to play on a concert grade Yamaha grand piano for the first time in my life. I have a Casio AP-470 and I suspect there will be a world of difference in the actions.

All this discussion I have been following will be made real to some small extent by being able to do a physical comparison.

Sample of one. Interesting but that’s all, the comparison may have no value in terms of a generalisation. But interesting, for you at least, and I will be curious about your feedback.

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: KevinM] #2858727
06/15/19 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinM
Well I'm off to play on a concert grade Yamaha grand piano for the first time in my life. I have a Casio AP-470 and I suspect there will be a world of difference in the actions.

All this discussion I have been following will be made real to some small extent by being able to do a physical comparison.



Definitely leave a feedback after you try it! And good luck (if it's for your recital) smile

Re: What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos) [Re: Chopin Acolyte] #2858768
06/15/19 09:31 AM
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In comparing actions, besides the "downweight," you also might want to consider the "upweight." One of the places DPs often feel unlike the real thing is that they can push up on your fingers after you play keys, more so than even heavy feeling acoustics, I think because the weight of the hammer does not completely detach from the key as it does on an acoustic. A simulated escapement is not a true escapement.

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