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Extreme overtones on my piano #2858373
06/14/19 12:23 AM
06/14/19 12:23 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 153
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apianostudent Offline OP
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apianostudent  Offline OP
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My piano has some extreme overtones - a friend said they were the 54th partial! Is this standard or indicative of something that I should be aware of? It doesn't bother me but I am curious.

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvCNEU5Tfn8

Thank you for thoughts!

Last edited by apianostudent; 06/14/19 12:25 AM.
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Re: Extreme Overtones on my piano [Re: apianostudent] #2858374
06/14/19 12:28 AM
06/14/19 12:28 AM
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Lady Bird Online content
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I thought I heard a "zing" sound sometimes after a note was played.
Is that what you mean?

Re: Extreme Overtones on my piano [Re: Lady Bird] #2858375
06/14/19 12:30 AM
06/14/19 12:30 AM
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apianostudent Offline OP
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Hi Lady Bird,

Yes, that "zing" on the low Db and the undulating "zing" on the low C after.

Re: Extreme Overtones on my piano [Re: apianostudent] #2858377
06/14/19 12:34 AM
06/14/19 12:34 AM
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Lady Bird Online content
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Can you hear it across the room or is it very slight ?Perhaps
a technician will post a reply that will prove helpful ?

Last edited by Lady Bird; 06/14/19 12:35 AM. Reason: Missing word
Re: Extreme Overtones on my piano [Re: apianostudent] #2858378
06/14/19 12:39 AM
06/14/19 12:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,339
Queensland, Australia
backto_study_piano Offline
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Every piano is different - are they new or old strings? It sounds like our really old piano when I was a child.

But every string will produce overtones / harmonics, and they'll be different according to how the string was struck, and some pianos seem to sound the fundamental more clearly, others allow the overtones to mix more. Plus some people can hear them clearly, others not so much. Each of us have different hearing ability, particularly as we age.

Have a read of the WIKIPEDIA article on "PIANO ACOUSTICS".


Alan from Queensland, Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert & Allen Organ (CF-17a)).
Re: Extreme Overtones on my piano [Re: apianostudent] #2858384
06/14/19 12:58 AM
06/14/19 12:58 AM
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Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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These "whistle" sounds on lower notes are often Longitudinal mode energy coupling with Transverse modes. Or they can be a Longitudinal mode that is loud enough to be obtrusive.

Longitudinal modes are very "sneaky and leaky". There have been several tries to characterize by testing their behavior enough to derive a formula to predict their frequency, and no one has succeeded.

There are some options to try in making up specifications for wound strings that seem to reduce Longitudinal mode problems. The type of wire used for the core of a wound string can have a profound influence on Longitudinal mode.


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Re: Extreme Overtones on my piano [Re: apianostudent] #2858390
06/14/19 01:11 AM
06/14/19 01:11 AM
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This is usually the result of too hard hammers which bounce off the string too fast to damp out those extraneous sounds. Bass hammers need a lot of cushioning to avoid vibrations in higher modes. I have had good success lessening or eliminating such sounds with aggressive needling deep under the strike point, often by needling into the side of the hammer.


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Re: Extreme Overtones on my piano [Re: BDB] #2858436
06/14/19 06:20 AM
06/14/19 06:20 AM
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Philadelphia/South Jersey
Rich Galassini Offline
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Originally Posted by BDB
This is usually the result of too hard hammers which bounce off the string too fast to damp out those extraneous sounds. Bass hammers need a lot of cushioning to avoid vibrations in higher modes. I have had good success lessening or eliminating such sounds with aggressive needling deep under the strike point, often by needling into the side of the hammer.


Right there. BDB, you took the words right out of my mouth.


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Re: Extreme Overtones on my piano [Re: apianostudent] #2858478
06/14/19 09:36 AM
06/14/19 09:36 AM
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apianostudent Offline OP
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apianostudent  Offline OP
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All,

Thank you for the feedback! I'll ask my tech to voice the hammers. It's surprising as I have Ari Issac hammers, which tend to be softer and the piano is mellow throughout.

Re: Extreme overtones on my piano [Re: apianostudent] #2858482
06/14/19 09:52 AM
06/14/19 09:52 AM
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Georgia, USA
Rickster Offline
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The 46" Petrof upright I owned for a while had a particular note in the bichord bass section that had a similar ringing overtone. The rest of the piano notes sounded clean and pure, but that one note. I tried to tune it out (helped some) but when I'd lightly sand and needle the hammer, that helped the most. But it only tamed the overtone to some degree... never got completely rid of it. And, it would revert back to it's harshness over time. Also, the hammers on the Petrof were softer and mellower over all.

I think most all pianos have some notes that exhibit a similar nuance to some degree. Personally, I've never owned a perfect sounding piano, though it sounded very good to me, and I've never played a perfect sounding piano... guess maybe I just haven't played that many pianos. smile

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: Extreme overtones on my piano [Re: apianostudent] #2858491
06/14/19 10:30 AM
06/14/19 10:30 AM
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Lady Bird Online content
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Would it sometimes need a new bass string? Could the string
be distorted in some way or is it a different string that resonates
to the low d flat and c ?

Re: Extreme overtones on my piano [Re: Lady Bird] #2858518
06/14/19 12:13 PM
06/14/19 12:13 PM
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Sometimes it is due to the string. But needling is the first thing to try.


Semipro Tech
Re: Extreme overtones on my piano [Re: apianostudent] #2858568
06/14/19 03:11 PM
06/14/19 03:11 PM
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Lady Bird Online content
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My Kawai grand which was getting a bit long in the tooth
started having a buzz after a low bass note was depressed.
The technician needled the hammers but it never helped.
He then did something to the string.I think the connection
of the string to the pin was buzzing.Not sure ?
This took away the buzz completely.
The buzz did not sound like the OP's piano which gives a "zing"
I hope the needling helps.

Re: Extreme overtones on my piano [Re: apianostudent] #2858570
06/14/19 03:24 PM
06/14/19 03:24 PM
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Posts: 12,577
Georgia, USA
Rickster Offline
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
My Kawai grand which was getting a bit long in the tooth
started having a buzz after a low bass note was depressed.
The technician needled the hammers but it never helped.
He then did something to the string.I think the connection
of the string to the pin was buzzing.Not sure ?
This took away the buzz completely.
The buzz did not sound like the OP's piano which gives a "zing"
I hope the needling helps.

I wonder if he loosened the tuning pin enough to remove the bass string off the rear hitch pin and gave it a twist or two in the direction of the winding twists and then reinstall and tighten to pitch? I've heard of doing that to fix a buzzing bass string.

I've actually done that with old bass strings on a few old pianos in an effort to improve the tone of bass notes. But I've come to the conclusion that what little improvement you might gain is not worth the effort. If you are going to loosen the tuning pin, and remove the bass string off the rear hitch pin and twist it, you may as well just replace the bass strings.

Acoustic pianos can be finicky at times... smile

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: Extreme overtones on my piano [Re: Rickster] #2858575
06/14/19 03:48 PM
06/14/19 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Rickster

Acoustic pianos can be finicky at times... smile

Rick


Yes, but irregularities in the tone are harder to fix on digital instruments!


Semipro Tech
Re: Extreme overtones on my piano [Re: apianostudent] #2858581
06/14/19 04:01 PM
06/14/19 04:01 PM
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Lady Bird Online content
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Yes I think that is what he did because he did mention
that it would have been best to replace the bass string.
But it went away so ,perhaps it was best not to do anything
else.


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