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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I’ve owned a CA63 with mechanically the same action as VPC1. What they added in the VPC1 was three sensors but other than that it’s the same.
One major difference between the two is the VPC Editor software. You can use it to adjust per key velocity. I found it very useful in eliminating all the uneven notes while playing with Pianoteq. I am not aware of any digital pianos that have this feature.

The VPC1 did take me quite a while to set up to my satisfaction, but I enjoyed the process. I agree, it's not for everyone.

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Originally Posted by noobpianist90

One major difference between the two is the VPC Editor software. You can use it to adjust per key velocity. I found it very useful in eliminating all the uneven notes while playing with Pianoteq. I am not aware of any digital pianos that have this feature.

The VPC1 did take me quite a while to set up to my satisfaction, but I enjoyed the process. I agree, it's not for everyone.


That reminds me...are there any presets available to download, or even the same model can have differences one has to deal with on their own?

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Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
That reminds me...are there any presets available to download, or even the same model can have differences one has to deal with on their own?
I'm not sure if there are differences between units of the same model. I'm guessing there will be small differences.
What I did while setting it up was simply use the default settings and keep playing pieces and noting the small things that I wanted to change. I then made the tweaks at the end of my practice session. I didn't spend too much time fiddling with the settings in isolation. I eventually stopped fiddling with it as I grew more satisfied with it. BTW this includes both Pianoteq settings as well as the VPC Editor settings.

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Given the question posed in the topic title: "What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)" ... the VPC doesn't even belong here.
If it does, then the obvious answer to "what does it lack?" is "SOUND"!
Guessing that such silliness was not the OP's intent ... I have to say that the VPC is out of scope.

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Whoa! Pretty strong words there, TS!
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
THAT RETAILER IS LYING THROUGH HIS TEETH.
I presume you were referring to the bit about the dealer's claim of buying at retail? If so, you're right. He's LTHT. He's FOS.

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Given the question posed in the topic title: "What DPs really lack (compared to the acoustic pianos)" ... the VPC doesn't even belong here.
If it does, then the obvious answer to "what does it lack?" is "SOUND"!
Guessing that such silliness was not the OP's intent ... I have to say that the VPC is out of scope.


Yeah it's actually funny. laugh laugh ^_^ But paired with a good software it might be fine, judging from the other posts...

Originally Posted by MacMacMac

I presume you were referring to the bit about the dealer's claim of buying at retail? If so, you're right. He's LTHT. He's FOS.


I googled "LTHT" and "FOS"....I guess you didn't mean "Leeds Teaching Hospitals"? FOS would be full of...feces. I guess.

BTW, when I asked him about models he doesn't have, he went online, looked up Kawai website and gave me exactly their official price + shipping. I'm not kidding, I suspect incompetence. He even told me that this way I would not "support the local business", because he would order it online. What is the point? I can look it up on the internet at home. There are online stores that don't charge for shipping. Literally anything is better than kawaius.

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Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte

1) I liked VPC1 best from anything I tried, including several Yamaha P-series models (lower-tier, 45, 90, 115, 125). Not sure how 515 compares to those, but unless it's several levels above, I'm not sure it can compete with VPC1 in the feel of the action (again, keep in mind that assessing actions, apart from obvious attributes, is highly subjective)

Yamahas $500 action (GHS) doesn't compare to it all. The wooden action of the P-515 is that of a $3,500 Clavinova.

That's the thing though: You visited one Kawai dealer and now think, you have comprehensive overview over (digital) pianos. Your misconceptions in the OP speak volumes.

Quote
3) the only shop that might get a P-515 for me to demo went silent over 2 weeks ago. I sent them several follow up emails (along the lines "hey, any luck with that P-515 we were discussing earlier? Thank you"), only to be ignored.

You should demo Clavinova, Avant Grand, Concert Artist, Novus and Roland's offerings above 2,000 bucks. This gives you a good impression of what to look for in a digital piano. If a dealer doesn't carry these models, go to another one. Bring good headphones as well.

Then you check the following models in your price range for yourself:

Kawai ES8
Roland FP-90
Yamaha P-515

Talk in a forum full of computer nerds won't lead you anywhere. wink


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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I’ve owned a CA63 with mechanically the same action as VPC1. What they added in the VPC1 was three sensors but other than that it’s the same. I never managed to adapt to it. It was a huge relief to sell it for a MP6 with the plastic RH action that’s supposed to be lower grade. Well, not to me.

A forum member recently purchased a VPC1 and returned it a few days later frustrated by inability to tweak the touch response to the VST-s despite his best attempts. And swapped it for an ES8 with the “lesser” RH3 action.

After the Steinway Model B I demoed an ES7 and I didn't like its RH2 action at all. Sound was great though, as to be expected from Kawai.


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Hi Chopin Acolite,

For what it’s worth, it’s really important that you don’t base your buying decision solely on the opinion of others. This is tantamount to choosing by committee. Stick with your own experience in the first instance and whatever you buy make sure you can return it if it’s not what you want. Find out how to return it and exactly how much it will cost to return. That way there will be no nasty surprises. I do wish you the best in your search and I must say this has been a very interesting and enjoyable thread to read through. All the best,

Paul

Last edited by pmh; 06/14/19 06:12 AM.

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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I’ve owned a CA63 with mechanically the same action as VPC1. What they added in the VPC1 was three sensors but other than that it’s the same. I never managed to adapt to it. It was a huge relief to sell it for a MP6 with the plastic RH action that’s supposed to be lower grade. Well, not to me.

A forum member recently purchased a VPC1 and returned it a few days later frustrated by inability to tweak the touch response to the VST-s despite his best attempts. And swapped it for an ES8 with the “lesser” RH3 action.

After the Steinway Model B I demoed an ES7 and I didn't like its RH2 action at all. Sound was great though, as to be expected from Kawai.


After playing hard-bottoming Yamaha actions, RH will feel too mushy, that's a fact. I also prefer the Yamaha way much more now.


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Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
I googled "LTHT" and "FOS"....I guess you didn't mean "Leeds Teaching Hospitals"?

He's just echoing my "lying through his teeth" = LTHT.

Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
BTW, when I asked him about models he doesn't have, he went online, looked up Kawai website and gave me exactly their official price + shipping. I'm not kidding, I suspect incompetence.

You are being too kind (re: "incompetence"). I suspect something more sinister which is why the LTHT & FOS. My Yamaha dealer, when I bought my N1X consulted the Yamaha website too. It's a convenient place to consult. That didn't mean that dealers don't get a percentage off retail price. They do. Because even to think they don't would presume not incompetence of your dealer, but incompetence of Yamaha's (sales) channel organization.


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About the LTHT ... yes.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
He's just echoing my "lying through his teeth" = LTHT.

And yes, "incompetence" is too kind.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
You are being too kind (re: "incompetence"). I suspect something more sinister ...
But there is sometimes a fine line between incompetence and dishonesty. They sometimes look the same outwardly.

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Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by JoeT

That's a false dichtomy. The P-515 is actually great at everything it does including accompanying me when practicing guitar, but it's also a good piano controller, when I need one. It's a comprehensive package with lots of value for the price paid.

In the end it doesn't matter how well something integrates with Pianoteq, if I like neither the old Kawai action nor the sound Ptq produces, because I consider both the action and the sound of the Yamaha P-515 being much better. You are just so hyper-focused on your niche use case, so every problem someone brings to this forum looks like another example of it. You are unable to acknowledge, that different people have different needs.


I know that assessing instruments is a highly subjective matter, but a few points:

1) I liked VPC1 best from anything I tried, including several Yamaha P-series models (lower-tier, 45, 90, 115, 125). Not sure how 515 compares to those, but unless it's several levels above, I'm not sure it can compete with VPC1 in the feel of the action (again, keep in mind that assessing actions, apart from obvious attributes, is highly subjective)
2) I had access to VPC1 to try it in a home setting and see it's doable in my house
3) the only shop that might get a P-515 for me to demo went silent over 2 weeks ago. I sent them several follow up emails (along the lines "hey, any luck with that P-515 we were discussing earlier? Thank you"), only to be ignored. I even called to the shop only to be picked up by a different person asking me about my name, name of the salesman who I'd been communicating with and telling me that they'd follow up. They never did. I am literally willing to shove money down their throats. I have no clue how one runs a succesfull business with employees like that (are customers supposed to beg salesmen to show them the product?), but to me Kawai with its infrastructure in the US is a winner over Yamaha. Sometimes a purchase is about customer's experience...and they deterred a customer, that's for sure.

Sorry for a smaller rant.

Heh, you are going to receive a lot of competing opinions on this matter between sampled sounds and modeled sounds. VPC-1 controller versus all in ones. In the end it's your decision. I just gave you my honest opinion on the matter and I hope it helped you towards making your decision. You have 12 years experience as a pianist already under your belt at the very least I would say give the VPC-1 + Pianoteq a try and in an ideal situation you are doing a direct A/B comparison between VPC-1 + Pianoteq (set to the pianoteq preset) versus a good digital piano with sampled sounds and an acoustic as well. If you had no experience with an acoustic piano I could understand how many would say they preferred a lighter action because it would seem that that action would be "easier" on the hands to play and that other digital pianos sound better. And I would not argue with them I would probably say the same thing. There are a number of VSTs that "sound" better than Pianoteq. There are a number of keyboards that have a lighter more "pleasant" action than the VPC-1. But what matters is when you start connecting the notes and actually start making music. Like I said, I would give this set-up time and don't judge it based on your first impressions. The key to this set-up was it's integration with Pianoteq. With other software packages I might not be recommending this set-up as much and yes I would say there are better all in one DP's out there, but its tight integration with Pianoteq was the deal breaker for me personally. It's a wonderful set-up for around $2000. Like I said- not perfect but it's in my opinion one of the best set-ups at that price range if your goal is to become a better pianist.

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Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
Originally Posted by oivavoi

Haven't read the whole thread, but I think this comment nails it. There are many things that make DP's sound and feel slightly "fake", but I think the loudspeaker system and the limitation of the sampling is chief among them. Hence: My preference when playing on a DP is using pianoteq and very good headphones, making sure that they have enough dynamic headroom. Pianoteq manages to model the experience of playing a piano much better than the sample-based pianos. And good headphones are better than mediocre speaker systems.

Concerning the action on DP's: YMMV. I also tend to the perceive the action DP's al as being generally a bit to the light side. The action on the NV10 is the only action I have perceived as 100 percent "real" (haven't tried the NX1 yet). But at the same time I also feel that DP actions are within the "acceptable range", kind of. Some pianos have lighter action, some are heavier. As a pianist it's important to be able to adjust to different actions. Going from a somewhat light DP action to a somewhat heavier acoustic action is in a way just such a readjustment, which is fine once you get used to it.

I don't THINK the action on your future DP will hold you back. But I could be wrong. Again, YMMV.

My advise would be to go for the VPC-1, pianoteq and good headphones, and just forget about speaker systems. At some point in the future you will probably live in a larger house, and you'll be able to get an acoustic as well. Until then headphones can do the job. My five cents.


I understand. I wish I could try NV10, I imagine it as a pretty surreal experience when this super realistic keyboard makes digital sound (or imagine touching it when it's turned off...) But that will never happen unless I move to a somewhat more crowded city.

About the headphones: I agree, I also find headphones to deliver more satisfying sound at a lower price range, so I will definitely get headphones. However, I also want to play duets with my roommate (cello) to have a bit of fun, so some speakers will be needed eventually. Also, it just feels nice to have nothing on your head and hear the sound from around (but I tried ~$200 price range Sennheiser headphones (HD 558 I guess?) once and they feel like the sound is coming from outside, I liked them).

Try the AKG K240. About 70 bucks. Best secret in the professional studio world and work great with digital pianos it's this instruments frequency range. https://medium.com/@Xander51/akg-k240-studio-headphones-review-a-quirky-analytical-studio-classic-e55ef1af45b1

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Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
and they feel like the sound is coming from outside, I liked them).

If you really want to feel as if the sound is coming from outside, try this relatively inexpensive device. It took many years to develop.


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I've never seen this guys podcasts before but he's obviously an accomplished professional pianist and I think it is important you listen to what he says when it comes to Pianoteq because the angst that he has experienced over digital pianos was the same one I have had over the years. He explains the advantages of Pianoteq better than anyone else out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTbXnbfymdc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulS-N6PSRuc

Like him, I took all digital pianos as nothing more than toys until I tried one with Pianoteq.

Now you combine this software with digital controller that designed specifically for it sporting one of the best actions out there. I think you have a winner eh?

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
and they feel like the sound is coming from outside, I liked them).

If you really want to feel as if the sound is coming from outside, try this relatively inexpensive device. It took many years to develop.


Do they make a model for 1/4” headphone jacks or does the audio have to go through the iPhone with an app? How would I use this with my Yamaha P-515?

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Originally Posted by Jethro
Like him, I took all digital pianos as nothing more than toys until I tried one with Pianoteq.

Now you combine this software with digital controller that designed specifically for it sporting one of the best actions out there. I think you have a winner eh?

No. IMO smile


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I reckon Cyber's looking to earn a bit o' cash from Pteq . . .by saying nothing!

I have to say, however, going through my old YT vids, that the DGX650 took some beating. I did my best stuff on that, without PT. The reverb more than made up for what it lacked.

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Jethro
Like him, I took all digital pianos as nothing more than toys until I tried one with Pianoteq.

Now you combine this software with digital controller that designed specifically for it sporting one of the best actions out there. I think you have a winner eh?

No. IMO smile

Why must you be difficult? smile

Explaining Pianoteq to some people is like explaining sex to a 10 year old. You may not like it now, but once you (or in this case your piano skills) mature you are going to like it. You just have to trust me and professionals like Hugh.

Last edited by Jethro; 06/14/19 01:03 PM.
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