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New piano - advice based on my music room! #2858041
06/13/19 07:00 AM
06/13/19 07:00 AM
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Bedfordshire, UK
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The Hound Offline OP
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Hi guys. Well, I'm very excited. The time is approaching to upgrade my lovely W.Hoffmann T186. It's served me well, but I'm going to replace it with something a little more... premium. I'd also in theory like to go bigger, but I don't want something that's just way too much for the room. It also occurs that it may be possible to go bigger with some brands (maybe those with a darker sound, like Bosendorfer or Steingraeber) than with others (Steinway, which I think is probably too much for the room, even if I stick with the same size as my current piano, i.e. a Model A).

What do you guys think? The room is 16.2 x 13.7, or 4.92 x 4.14 if you like your metres. There are a couple of pics here so you can see how the room is done (excuse the clutter on the back wall behind my daughter's harp): https://imgur.com/a/Yx0NyOm

The room's carpeted, with a braided rug under the piano. The walls are fairly bare, minus a couple of music exam certificates. There are wooden beams running across the ceiling.

I've tried a Bosendorfer 185 VC down in London. It's one CM smaller than my current piano, but the VC is meant to project a lot more than the non-VC (and I believe there's no standard 185 any more, only the VC). I presume despite this, the 185 VC is still going to be less overbearing than the standard 200?

One instrument that has really piqued my interest is the Steingraeber 192. 6 CM bigger than my current instrument, but I feel like it probably won't be as brash as a Steinway A, which I'm veering away from. I'm very curious about Steingrabers and plan to go and play one of these very soon, though I wouldn't consider their 170 model.

I know ultimately individual pianos sound different, but I have to focus my search a bit somehow. What do you guys think my parameters should be? What would be a blatantly inadvisable size for my music room? Does a darker "house sound" enable me to go bigger? Should I veer more towards Steingraeber, Bosendorfer, maybe Bluthner, given the dimensions of my music room?

Any advice from you knowedgeable people on here is much appreciated. thumb


Working on:

Beethoven - Piano Sonata No.15 in D major, Op.28 ("Pastoral")

Schumann/Liszt - Widmung
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Re: New piano - advice based on my music room! [Re: The Hound] #2858076
06/13/19 09:00 AM
06/13/19 09:00 AM
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Queensland, Australia
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I'd think that most pianos much the same size would be suitable. A new piano will be voiced for the room, and if the present piano is great, the new one should be too.

I'd go search for the piano you want to play - that is the key. Of more importance is to get one which is well regulated so you are able to play ppp when you wish. Which is often a problem with display pianos, they are quite often not very well prepared.

Enjoy your new piano!!!


Alan from Queensland, Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert & Allen Organ (CF-17a)).
Re: New piano - advice based on my music room! [Re: The Hound] #2858081
06/13/19 09:20 AM
06/13/19 09:20 AM
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Vienna, Austria
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First of all: Find a new place for the piano, away from the heating radiator.

Re: New piano - advice based on my music room! [Re: The Hound] #2858082
06/13/19 09:23 AM
06/13/19 09:23 AM
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For a 8 ft ceiling the formula for the maximum size grand is room perimeter/10. In your case 59.8 / 10 =~ 6 ft.

Re: New piano - advice based on my music room! [Re: backto_study_piano] #2858108
06/13/19 10:09 AM
06/13/19 10:09 AM
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Bedfordshire, UK
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Originally Posted by OE1FEU
First of all: Find a new place for the piano, away from the heating radiator.


The radiator is permanently switched off. The curtains also remain drawn to avoid sunlight. I do feel like if I'm going to a top grade piano it will be worth being more cognisant of the room conditions though, so I plan to look into regulating the room's humidity and heat a bit more meticulously.

Originally Posted by backto_study_piano
I'd think that most pianos much the same size would be suitable. A new piano will be voiced for the room, and if the present piano is great, the new one should be too.

I'd go search for the piano you want to play - that is the key. Of more importance is to get one which is well regulated so you are able to play ppp when you wish. Which is often a problem with display pianos, they are quite often not very well prepared.

Enjoy your new piano!!!


Originally Posted by Hakki
For a 8 ft ceiling the formula for the maximum size grand is room perimeter/10. In your case 59.8 / 10 =~ 6 ft.


Thanks for your comments. I agree that whatever it is needs to be obviously well-prepped and close to the same size as now is about where it's at (and the ceiling is indeed 8 ft), but just wondering people's thoughts on the leeway in that, and how much that leeway might be informed by:

a. The broad sonic characteristics of the manufacturer
and
b. Voicing by a tech either in situ or at the factory

and which more of those two?

Can you get away with a bigger Bosendorfer than you can a Steinway? Is it silly to even countenance a Steingraeber 192, 3 inches more than the formula suggests?


Working on:

Beethoven - Piano Sonata No.15 in D major, Op.28 ("Pastoral")

Schumann/Liszt - Widmung
Re: New piano - advice based on my music room! [Re: The Hound] #2858116
06/13/19 10:24 AM
06/13/19 10:24 AM
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It would absolutely not be silly to consider the Steingraeber. That formula is merely a suggestion - 3 inches isn't going to take a piano from suiting a room to overpowering it. It is also somewhat of a myth that larger pianos are automatically going to be harder to control in smaller spaces. Larger pianos are often easier to control dynamically - due to more optimal action geometry among other things - indeed, concert grands are often easier to play quietly than small grands. When pushed to their limits, larger pianos could easily overwhelm a small room, but because there is easier access to all dynamic ranges (especially quiet playing), you might not ever get close to that point.

Besides, Steingraebers are truly outstanding, absolutely top-tier pianos. Try out as many different pianos as you can. Based on my experience and tonal preferences, the Steingraeber would be hard to beat, but it might be that you prefer the sound of Bosendorfers, or Grotrians, or Seilers, or Schimmels, or Faziolis, or Steinways, or one particular example from any of those. smile Go out and play as many as you can. Cast a wide net, and see what draws you back the most.


Adam Schulte-Bukowinski, RPT
Piano Technician, University of Nebraska-Lincoln
ASB Piano Service
Re: New piano - advice based on my music room! [Re: Hakki] #2858119
06/13/19 10:32 AM
06/13/19 10:32 AM
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Vienna, Austria
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Originally Posted by Hakki
For a 8 ft ceiling the formula for the maximum size grand is room perimeter/10. In your case 59.8 / 10 =~ 6 ft.


Where does that formula come from and where does that leave people who are happy with a concert grand in a living room?

Re: New piano - advice based on my music room! [Re: The Hound] #2858148
06/13/19 11:30 AM
06/13/19 11:30 AM
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New York City
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1. Does your music room open to another room with an opening wider than a door? If so, the effective size is larger than its dimensions.

2. I'm not sure the formula Hakki used from an older(?) edition of the Piano Buyer or Piano Book is still considered valid or if it's been included in the newer editions. Many people think the loudness of a piano is not related to its size which I think would automatically make any formula invalid.

3. You could explain your concern about size to the dealer and ask if they are willing to let you try out the piano in your music room for a few days. Some dealers are willing to do this especially if the piano is expensive and/or you agree to pay for shipping if you return it and/or agree to purchase another piano from them if you return the first one. Try and have the piano voiced down beforehand or have a good tech ready to voice it down during the tryout period.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 06/13/19 11:34 AM.
Re: New piano - advice based on my music room! [Re: OE1FEU] #2858168
06/13/19 12:16 PM
06/13/19 12:16 PM
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Re: New piano - advice based on my music room! [Re: pianoloverus] #2858172
06/13/19 12:32 PM
06/13/19 12:32 PM
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Bedfordshire, UK
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The Hound Offline OP
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
1. Does your music room open to another room with an opening wider than a door? If so, the effective size is larger than its dimensions.

2. I'm not sure the formula Hakki used from an older(?) edition of the Piano Buyer or Piano Book is still considered valid or if it's been included in the newer editions. Many people think the loudness of a piano is not related to its size which I think would automatically make any formula invalid.

3. You could explain your concern about size to the dealer and ask if they are willing to let you try out the piano in your music room for a few days. Some dealers are willing to do this especially if the piano is expensive and/or you agree to pay for shipping if you return it and/or agree to purchase another piano from them if you return the first one. Try and have the piano voiced down beforehand or have a good tech ready to voice it down during the tryout period.


1. Nope

2. I've seen it before - I can't comment but it seems intuitive that a bigger instrument would make more noise, or certainly have more potential for it - I get that the control might be better too. Helpful to have at least some rule of thumb though?

3. Nice idea but I'm hoping to visit the factory and choose one, so I don't think it would work for me


Working on:

Beethoven - Piano Sonata No.15 in D major, Op.28 ("Pastoral")

Schumann/Liszt - Widmung
Re: New piano - advice based on my music room! [Re: Hakki] #2858223
06/13/19 03:09 PM
06/13/19 03:09 PM
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Vienna, Austria
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Originally Posted by Hakki


I stopped reading after this bold statement: "Do not position a vertical piano or the tail of a grand in a room corner."

I have the luxury of moving my Steinway B on Teflon floaters easily on a polished hardwood floor and the best result in terms of playing and listening myself right at the piano was achieved by putting the tail into a corner at a 30° angle. The room is approximately 25m² and since its on the top floor of an old building it's got a ceiling at a 45° angle reaching up to 4,5 meters. There are other open rooms adjacent to it and I would not hesitate to put a full concert grand in that room.

I've actually had a 2,75cm Yamaha in a 20m² room for quite some time and had I changed this to a 1,90cm piano, the only difference would have been that I'd have been frustrated at hearing the inharmonicity of the bass section of a drastically smaller piano.

If the piano fits into the room physically, go for maximum size. Always. Ignore stupid formulas. A longer grand isn't massively louder than a smaller one, it just sounds better. A LOT better.

For the OP I'd suggest he take a look at the Bösendorfer 214 VC or a Bechstein C 234.

Re: New piano - advice based on my music room! [Re: OE1FEU] #2858260
06/13/19 04:18 PM
06/13/19 04:18 PM
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I have a Kawai RX2 (5'10") in a 20 x 25 x 8 room with furniture, hardwood floor and area rug under piano. With lid open it can get quite loud and I always play lid closed except for recording a piece.

Re: New piano - advice based on my music room! [Re: OE1FEU] #2858262
06/13/19 04:21 PM
06/13/19 04:21 PM
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Hound- You are very astute to recognize the scale differences between different manufactures. Scale presents a basic conundrum in design- do you scale for a concert hall where the greatest number of potential buyers will hear your piano (and your reputation may be sealed), or for a living room with an intimate audience? IMO there's only limited success in attempting to modify one piano for the other- extensive needling can help, but to significantly reduce the volume runs the risk of tonal compromise. Reducing stretch can also help a little. I have heard that Bosendorfer even offers a choice of 2 different brands of hammers to try to bridge this gap. Sampling a new piano in large dealer showrooms is also often not very helpful in this aspect.

Where does that formula come from and where does that leave people who are happy with a concert grand in a living room?[/quote] OE1FEU

There are a plethora of opinions and answers in recent threads, check them out! For example some home concert grand owners are happy to play with the lid down and even a heavy cover on top. I find it interesting how tonal tastes can vary so much within a group of enlightened owners.

Last edited by Sanfrancisco; 06/13/19 04:23 PM.
Re: New piano - advice based on my music room! [Re: OE1FEU] #2858266
06/13/19 04:29 PM
06/13/19 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by OE1FEU
Originally Posted by Hakki


I stopped reading after this bold statement: "Do not position a vertical piano or the tail of a grand in a room corner."
I think it's dangerous to dismiss an idea based on one specific case. Maybe your piano sounds best with the tail in the corner because of other factors in the room. Maybe it sounds best to you but other people would disagree with your assessment. I do think positioning a grand with the tail in a corner is quite popular although I don't know if that's for decorative or sound reasons.

Re: New piano - advice based on my music room! [Re: pianoloverus] #2858275
06/13/19 04:49 PM
06/13/19 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by OE1FEU
Originally Posted by Hakki


I stopped reading after this bold statement: "Do not position a vertical piano or the tail of a grand in a room corner."
I think it's dangerous to dismiss an idea based on one specific case. Maybe your piano sounds best with the tail in the corner because of other factors in the room. Maybe it sounds best to you but other people would disagree with your assessment. I do think positioning a grand with the tail in a corner is quite popular although I don't know if that's for decorative or sound reasons.


I dismiss ideas when they have no foundation in terms of hard facts. To create a formula based on gut feeling meets that criterion.

It should actually be pretty easy to get hard facts on the sound amplitude of various piano sizes and it will leave those stunned who keep propagating the idea that there is a relation between the size of a grand and its sound in a specific room size. There isn't. A baby grand won't ever grow up to a concert grand if you put it into a bigger room. A concert grand won't sound worse if you put it into a smaller room.

I can fill the Berlin Philharmonic Hall with a Steinway A. It will just sound shitty, but not not loud enough.

Last edited by OE1FEU; 06/13/19 04:49 PM.
Re: New piano - advice based on my music room! [Re: The Hound] #2858281
06/13/19 05:04 PM
06/13/19 05:04 PM
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One of the big problems with that formula is that it posits that bass waves need "room" to develop. This is a long dispelled audio myth. While wavelength certainly is a factor in room acoustics we don't hear wavelengths, we hear frequency, that is, changing pressure a certain number of times a second. That happens regardless of wavelength. If bass waves need room to develop, why do headphones, even ear buds have so much bass?

Corners. Bass builds up in corners and it can lead one to think the piano is muddy when in fact it isn't. Then again, lots a pianos are set up so the players ears are in the corner and the players are as happy as a cat on a dairy farm. When thinking about piano placement, don't thing piano, think about the players ears. Corners and the dead center of the room are considered, IN GENERAL PRINCIPLE, to not be best practice.

Our ears adapt wonderfully so you may not even be bothered by existent acoustics issue.. You'll know what problems do or don't exist when you start to record. Ninety percent of those problems will be room acoustics and not the piano and even more so not the difference between a 6 and 7 foot piano.


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Re: New piano - advice based on my music room! [Re: The Hound] #2858285
06/13/19 05:10 PM
06/13/19 05:10 PM
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OE1FEU,

Quote
A concert grand won't sound worse if you put it into a smaller room.


Well, except when I've played a piano in a room that's way too small, it's been physically unpleasant for my ears, and the harsh sounds produced can only be described as worse than how the same piano would sound in a room better matched to the piano's size. So I'm not sure how you're getting to this statement you made above, unless you mean something different by "sound worse" than I do.


Started piano June 1999.
Proud owner of a Yamaha C2

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Re: New piano - advice based on my music room! [Re: ShiroKuro] #2858308
06/13/19 06:11 PM
06/13/19 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
OE1FEU,

than how the same piano would sound in a room better matched to the piano's size.


There is no such thing as a room matched to a piano's size.

Please prove me wrong and come up with specific measurements of the difference in volume produced by various grands and then translate them to room size.

As I said before, the Yamaha 275cm I had in a 20m² room was just magnificent.

Re: New piano - advice based on my music room! [Re: The Hound] #2858360
06/13/19 10:06 PM
06/13/19 10:06 PM
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I am not interested in “proving you wrong” — although I am interested in understanding. And at this point, I don’t understand your claim that a concert grand won’t sound worse in a small room.

Regarding the smallish room with the large concert Yamaha you mentioned ... I believe you that it sounded great. But please believe me that I have played in some practice rooms (uprights and grands) that I cold not bear to be in because it was too much volume for the space. Otherwise very nice pianos, and actually tuned and maintained.

So, to what would you attribute the sound problem? I (and probably many people on this forum) would say that’s because the rooms were just too small.

I am pursuing this topic because I have an 11x 18 (approx. 18 square meters) room that I hope to be filling up with a grand piano in the not too distant future (I currently have an upright). And I won’t be in the position of being able to test out the piano in the room before buying, so I’d like to be able to make good choices in terms of the size of the piano relative to the room.


Started piano June 1999.
Proud owner of a Yamaha C2

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Re: New piano - advice based on my music room! [Re: ShiroKuro] #2858399
06/14/19 03:17 AM
06/14/19 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
I am not interested in “proving you wrong” — although I am interested in understanding. And at this point, I don’t understand your claim that a concert grand won’t sound worse in a small room.

Regarding the smallish room with the large concert Yamaha you mentioned ... I believe you that it sounded great. But please believe me that I have played in some practice rooms (uprights and grands) that I cold not bear to be in because it was too much volume for the space. Otherwise very nice pianos, and actually tuned and maintained.



We're running around in circles. I, too, have been in practice room like the ones you mentioned, but different from you, I concluded that it's not the piano, but the room itself. Too square, too many hard, flat surfaces. It wouldn't have made a difference whether there's a small upright or a Steinway B in the room. So, as I said, what's needed is specific measurements of volume of a piano. That's it. Anything else is just an expression of personal belief. How much louder is a 212 vs. 190, a 174 vs. 190, a 211 vs. 275. As long as we don't have specifics on that, we're running wild in the field of esoterics and personal taste.

And that still leaves out the easy way of mellowing down sound by good voicing.

I stand by my belief that a Steinway A will fill a big hall, it will just sound shitty because it's not a full concert grand.

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