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Replace failing P200 -Yamaha, Roland, Dynatone?
#2857380 06/10/19 09:47 PM
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I have been playing my Yamaha P200 as my 'piano' for over 20 years but I need to replace it. I was very happy with the internal speakers and piano sound and only have to replace it because a couple of things are going bad on it. (Midi out, who would have thought---). I have tested the Yamaha P515, Roland FP30, 60 & 90 & a Dynatone DPR 3200H.

I notice after playing the P200 for so many years that other piano's seem to play very easy for me, which makes me think the action may have been to heavy and hurt my hands over time? (having issues with hand pain sometimes). I am curious if anyone knows if this was known for the key action being too heavy? I would like whatever I purchase to have the lightest action possible that will not ruin me for playing acoustic piano's and other DP's when they come along. I am only concerned about the acoustic piano sound through it's own speakers, no reverb. (I have VST's for recording).

I have a few observations so I will list them for simplicity:

Bought Roland FP 30 a few days ago and thought at the store that the sound was nice but at home realized I hate the speakers. I really like the feel of the keys and action though. I will be trading it for something with better speakers.

Tried Roland FP 60 in loud store --- gut reaction not crazy about the sound (harsh?) but loved the action. Not sure on speakers.

Tried Roland FP 90 and Yamaha P515 in same loud store. I actually didn't like the actions on these as much as the FP 30 or 60, but I don't think I am the best judge and am skewed by my years on the P200. I know I would adjust. I went back and forth forever and they are very different but I can't seem to pick one on sound. (Roland more choices on acoustic piano sounds it seems). I also think the P515 white keys being smooth and black keys having texture was weird, any thoughts on that?

Tried a DPR 3200H Dynatone in a nice quiet store that 'seemed' more like a real piano to me and sounded more even toned and not as harsh as all the others, but it was a completely different environment. I can't play it as easily as the FP 30 or 60 and It's big for my space but if it was worth it I would consider it. $2500 for that, which is much more than the others and I am not sure if that was just because it is pretty, which I don't care about. I just want to improve my playing.

I could go higher up in hammered action DP's but get confused on when you are paying for beauty (I don't even want a 'real' looking one since it's crammed in a corner of my bedroom) over function and speaker quality. I am also confused over key lengths and if it matters.

I am experienced musically but don't trust my piano picking judgement after playing the P200 for so many years. I think people adjust to what they are comfortable with and I'm pretty sure I'm stuck on the sound and speakers I had. (Which I would never use to record, just for practicing live). Any opinions and input would be so appreciated.

Re: Replace failing P200 -Yamaha, Roland, Dynatone?
Anna123 #2857382 06/10/19 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna123
Bought Roland FP 30 a few days ago and thought at the store that the sound was nice but at home realized I hate the speakers.

Yay!

Oh sorry blush that was probably an inappropriate response, but on this forum I've received some notoriety from my FP30 remarks! wink laugh


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Replace failing P200 -Yamaha, Roland, Dynatone?
Anna123 #2857383 06/10/19 09:56 PM
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I have the Yamaha P80, which I believe is the speaker-less version of the P200. I agree with you on all counts. The action is way too heavy. It was not a good piano, at all.

I think you will probably come to realize that the sound and responsiveness is very poor as well, compared to modern options. It's a dead sound.

The available options today are way, way, better. Keep up your search and definitely try the options in person. Try some Kawais as well. I'm sure others will chime in with excellent recommendations.

Re: Replace failing P200 -Yamaha, Roland, Dynatone?
Anna123 #2857406 06/11/19 02:27 AM
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I have a P-515 and find it to be excellent. It shares the keyboard of the Clavinova CLP-645 which, to my mind, has the best keyboard action of the Clavinova range.


Chris

Yamaha P-515, Yamaha Reface CP.
Re: Replace failing P200 -Yamaha, Roland, Dynatone?
Anna123 #2857413 06/11/19 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Anna123
I have been playing my Yamaha P200 as my 'piano' for over 20 years but I need to replace it. I was very happy with the internal speakers and piano sound and only have to replace it because a couple of things are going bad on it. (Midi out, who would have thought---). I have tested the Yamaha P515, Roland FP30, 60 & 90 & a Dynatone DPR 3200H.

I notice after playing the P200 for so many years that other piano's seem to play very easy for me, which makes me think the action may have been to heavy and hurt my hands over time? (having issues with hand pain sometimes). I am curious if anyone knows if this was known for the key action being too heavy? I would like whatever I purchase to have the lightest action possible that will not ruin me for playing acoustic piano's and other DP's when they come along. I am only concerned about the acoustic piano sound through it's own speakers, no reverb. (I have VST's for recording).

I have a few observations so I will list them for simplicity:

Bought Roland FP 30 a few days ago and thought at the store that the sound was nice but at home realized I hate the speakers. I really like the feel of the keys and action though. I will be trading it for something with better speakers.

Tried Roland FP 60 in loud store --- gut reaction not crazy about the sound (harsh?) but loved the action. Not sure on speakers.

Tried Roland FP 90 and Yamaha P515 in same loud store. I actually didn't like the actions on these as much as the FP 30 or 60, but I don't think I am the best judge and am skewed by my years on the P200. I know I would adjust. I went back and forth forever and they are very different but I can't seem to pick one on sound. (Roland more choices on acoustic piano sounds it seems). I also think the P515 white keys being smooth and black keys having texture was weird, any thoughts on that?

Tried a DPR 3200H Dynatone in a nice quiet store that 'seemed' more like a real piano to me and sounded more even toned and not as harsh as all the others, but it was a completely different environment. I can't play it as easily as the FP 30 or 60 and It's big for my space but if it was worth it I would consider it. $2500 for that, which is much more than the others and I am not sure if that was just because it is pretty, which I don't care about. I just want to improve my playing.

I could go higher up in hammered action DP's but get confused on when you are paying for beauty (I don't even want a 'real' looking one since it's crammed in a corner of my bedroom) over function and speaker quality. I am also confused over key lengths and if it matters.

I am experienced musically but don't trust my piano picking judgement after playing the P200 for so many years. I think people adjust to what they are comfortable with and I'm pretty sure I'm stuck on the sound and speakers I had. (Which I would never use to record, just for practicing live). Any opinions and input would be so appreciated.



Hi Anna123,


Adjusting to a new action is normal after playing a digital for years and having to replace it. Hopefully you can enjoy your playing better.
Key length is about physics: the longer the key length, the bigger the lever. Grand pianos have longer key lengths than the average digital. Some digital pianos sell longer key length actions to give a more accurate feel. Kawai have the Grand Feel and Grand Feel II actions ( e.g., the cabinet version on the CA78). In cabinet pianos, the Kawai's have good actions as do the Casio GP range. Above that you've got your hybrid pianos: Yamaha NUX1, Avant Grand range; Kawai Novus NV10. These come with real actions.


The one's you haven't tried in that 'portable digital piano' category are the Kawai ES8 and the Casio PX-S3000. The PX-S3000 is the latest released of all the instruments and is interesting because of it's weight and it's design. The action is supposed to be quite good, so it maybe worth a try.

The Kawai ES8 is really one of the most popular boards on this forum for the quality of the action. It's a superb instrument for a portable piano.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Casio PX-S3000

[Linked Image]

The other option for you is to go for a stage piano and add some monitors instead. This would give you much cleaner sound but would cost a tad more (as good monitors tend to be in the £600--£1000 range). The main reason for opting for this would be the ability to have a piano with Kawai's Grand Feel action (the best action available on a slab piano).

E.g., Kawai MP11 (used might save you a lot of money) or MP11SE plus Adam A7X monitors---This would be the bees knees for piano action on a portable piano.

[Linked Image]

That gives you a bit to think about :-).

The traditional options for people looking for portable are the ES8, FP90, P515 and PX-S3000. The other make (Dynatone) isn't well known. However, if you are going down the cabinet piano road, there are lots of other models to compare..

Kind regards,

Doug.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Replace failing P200 -Yamaha, Roland, Dynatone?
Anna123 #2857631 06/11/19 10:13 PM
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Thank you! I will go back to the store and try the Kawai also. I am really hoping for the best speakers for natural sound because I usually just plop down to play without hooking up speakers and am seeking a more 'piano' experience than an amplified DP. I have been reading about the digital sound some people experience with the Roland FP90 and the sustain. That makes me a little nervous. My main thing is a comfortable keyboard feel and even sound without harshness.

Re: Replace failing P200 -Yamaha, Roland, Dynatone?
Anna123 #2857664 06/12/19 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Anna123
Thank you! I will go back to the store and try the Kawai also. I am really hoping for the best speakers for natural sound because I usually just plop down to play without hooking up speakers and am seeking a more 'piano' experience than an amplified DP. I have been reading about the digital sound some people experience with the Roland FP90 and the sustain. That makes me a little nervous. My main thing is a comfortable keyboard feel and even sound without harshness.


Hi Anna,

Seems like a cabinet piano would be a better option for you---if you can get a good one at your $2500---as you don't want wires and speakers etc.

I had a quick look (I keep my eye out for bargins).
There is a really good deal on a Roland HP603 and luckily for you, the seller's address is Florida.
I would look into this as it's quite a good deal.

Roland HP603 on ebay

It's just within your budget, and in excellent condition as the user has only had it a year and has not used it much.
Seems like it's worth looking into. Would ask if they would sell for $2000 and negotiate from there.

Kind regards,

Doug.

Last edited by Doug M.; 06/12/19 03:27 AM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Replace failing P200 -Yamaha, Roland, Dynatone?
Anna123 #2857715 06/12/19 09:19 AM
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Thanks! I just did a quick comparison of that HP603 and the FP90 and am confused as they sound like the same sound and keyboard? Does the fact it is mounted in that stand make the difference? I have a tiny place to put it so don't want to cram a cabinet in the space unless it is a huge step up.

One of the things I don't like about the FP30 is that the speakers face down-- not sure if that is just because I am so used to my P200 speakers facing up though. It seems as if some of these less expensive cabinet pianos have speakers facing down also?

Re: Replace failing P200 -Yamaha, Roland, Dynatone?
Anna123 #2857718 06/12/19 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Anna123
Thanks! I just did a quick comparison of that HP603 and the FP90 and am confused as they sound like the same sound and keyboard? Does the fact it is mounted in that stand make the difference? I have a tiny place to put it so don't want to cram a cabinet in the space unless it is a huge step up.

One of the things I don't like about the FP30 is that the speakers face down-- not sure if that is just because I am so used to my P200 speakers facing up though. It seems as if some of these less expensive cabinet pianos have speakers facing down also?

Speaker down is terrible. One's ears are not on the knees or the feet.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Replace failing P200 -Yamaha, Roland, Dynatone?
Anna123 #2857722 06/12/19 09:44 AM
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So I take it you don't like the FP30? (I read your link ;-) I keep giving it another chance in case I just needed to adjust and it sounds the exact same every time to me. So that helps me realize it isn't just me, thanks.

I noticed on a few of the lower priced 'cabinet' (not sure if that is what they are called) pianos that there are just holes cut out with speakers aiming down also. I am not sure if the covered wood top has some resonance benefit though. I hadn't been impressed with any I tried except that LP Dynatone sounded a bit more realistic and smooth toned. I should add it wasn't that great though---

Last edited by Anna123; 06/12/19 09:48 AM.
Re: Replace failing P200 -Yamaha, Roland, Dynatone?
Anna123 #2857727 06/12/19 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Anna123
So I take it you don't like the FP30? (I read your link ;-) I keep giving it another chance in case I just needed to adjust and it sounds the exact same every time to me. So that helps me realize it isn't just me, thanks.

I noticed on a few of the lower priced 'cabinet' (not sure if that is what they are called) pianos that there are just holes cut out with speakers aiming down also. I am not sure if the covered wood top has some resonance benefit though. I hadn't been impressed with any I tried except that LP Dynatone sounded a bit more realistic and smooth toned. I should add it wasn't that great though---

For me speaker down = muffled. I was not affected as much by the speakers on the FP30 since I used headphones most of the time. The bigger issue for me was
the tonal qualities of the FP30 reminded me of a toy piano, so I used Pianoteq most of the time instead of the FP30's own internal piano sound generator. I'm happy now that I have something that sounds like a real piano both with speakers and headphones.
wink


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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Replace failing P200 -Yamaha, Roland, Dynatone?
Anna123 #2857839 06/12/19 03:10 PM
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I was able to go back and forth between the Roland FP90, Yamaha P515, Kawaii ES8, but no Casio PX-S3000 available. I decided I want to stick with a slab, no cabinet.

I found myself preferring the Roland and Kawaii over the Yamaha. After playing those two back and forth I discovered that the Roland FP90 doesn't sustain the high notes compared to the mid notes? Has anyone else noticed this? I played the same arpeggios with sustain up the keyboard and the Roland FP 90's are either so quiet they are buried, or die out quicker than when I play the same on any other keyboard there. When playing only the higher tones alone with sustain they were okay. I found where to tweak the sustain length and it helped the high notes but then muddied up the mid tones more so overall it didn't help. All of this while a DJ was going to town about 20 feet from me, my ears were shot by the end----- Anyway, the Kawaii was always kind of nice to go back to--- but then the Roland kind of "Wowwed" me for a second when I went back to it, and then kind of was off-putting after a bit-- not sure. The individual note tweaking is AMAZING though. I was going to purchase it just on that thinking I could fix anything, but the sustain lack could not be overcome.

Any thoughts on that? Any issues with the Kawaii to watch out for? I wanted to like the newer better looking, nice keys, extra option keyboards (Roland and Yamaha) more but the Kawaii seems really nice in a comfortable easy on the ears way, rather than WOW. Of course all three are amazing in the big picture but since I can be fussy I may as well.

Re: Replace failing P200 -Yamaha, Roland, Dynatone?
Anna123 #2857862 06/12/19 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna123
I was able to go back and forth between the Roland FP90, Yamaha P515, Kawaii ES8, but no Casio PX-S3000 available. I decided I want to stick with a slab, no cabinet.

I found myself preferring the Roland and Kawaii over the Yamaha. After playing those two back and forth I discovered that the Roland FP90 doesn't sustain the high notes compared to the mid notes? Has anyone else noticed this? I played the same arpeggios with sustain up the keyboard and the Roland FP 90's are either so quiet they are buried, or die out quicker than when I play the same on any other keyboard there. When playing only the higher tones alone with sustain they were okay. I found where to tweak the sustain length and it helped the high notes but then muddied up the mid tones more so overall it didn't help. All of this while a DJ was going to town about 20 feet from me, my ears were shot by the end----- Anyway, the Kawaii was always kind of nice to go back to--- but then the Roland kind of "Wowwed" me for a second when I went back to it, and then kind of was off-putting after a bit-- not sure. The individual note tweaking is AMAZING though. I was going to purchase it just on that thinking I could fix anything, but the sustain lack could not be overcome.

Any thoughts on that? Any issues with the Kawaii to watch out for? I wanted to like the newer better looking, nice keys, extra option keyboards (Roland and Yamaha) more but the Kawaii seems really nice in a comfortable easy on the ears way, rather than WOW. Of course all three are amazing in the big picture but since I can be fussy I may as well.



I think there's an app Roland released for more extensive tweaking. Whether or not that would allow what you are after?

Maybe you should try the Rd2000 out just for comparison, see if the issue has been overcome in the next iteration.

The Rd2000 also has the V-piano sounds, so that might be interesting to test.

Of course, the Kawai can be combined with Pianoteq if modelled piano interests you.

Kind regards,

Doug.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Replace failing P200 -Yamaha, Roland, Dynatone?
Anna123 #2857912 06/12/19 06:58 PM
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Thanks. I looked around for individual tweaking of individual note sustain time or volume and don't see anything yet. I passed on the RD2000 because it doesn't have built-in speakers--- I will have to take a look at Pianoteq. Sounds cool. I already have beautiful sampled pianos that I trigger within Ableton for recording, I'm not too fussy on that end. I just want a good sounding/feeling piano for when I play for fun or practice, and maybe play out again at some point, but then I would amp it. (I plan to use the usb to input into Ableton and trigger those sounds).

Last edited by Anna123; 06/12/19 06:59 PM.
Re: Replace failing P200 -Yamaha, Roland, Dynatone?
Anna123 #2857917 06/12/19 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna123
The individual note tweaking is AMAZING though. I was going to purchase it just on that thinking I could fix anything, but the sustain lack could not be overcome. big picture but since I can be fussy I may as well.


According to the marketing literature, the Kawai also has this feature:

The ES8’s powerful Virtual Technician function simulates these refinements digitally, allowing discerning musicians to shape aspects of the selected piano’s character to suit their personal preferences.

Perform touch weight and voicing adjustments, regulate hammer and key release noises, and fine-tune string and damper resonances. It is even possible to adjust the precise tuning, volume, and character of individual notes – all in real-time.


App: https://apps.apple.com/app/virtual-technician/id948579667

Re: Replace failing P200 -Yamaha, Roland, Dynatone?
Anna123 #2857950 06/12/19 10:40 PM
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Nice! That is great. Especially with that I think I am leaning towards the Kawaii now after thinking it over more. It was the only one didn't make me question what I was hearing as far as sounding more uniform top to bottom to my ears. It's funny but they have that keyboard off with the older ones with a newly reduced price and presenting the Roland and Yamaha more like the more up to date ones.

Re: Replace failing P200 -Yamaha, Roland, Dynatone?
Anna123 #2858005 06/13/19 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Anna123
Thanks. I looked around for individual tweaking of individual note sustain time or volume and don't see anything yet. I passed on the RD2000 because it doesn't have built-in speakers--- I will have to take a look at Pianoteq. Sounds cool. I already have beautiful sampled pianos that I trigger within Ableton for recording, I'm not too fussy on that end. I just want a good sounding/feeling piano for when I play for fun or practice, and maybe play out again at some point, but then I would amp it. (I plan to use the usb to input into Ableton and trigger those sounds).


Hi Anna,

The Roland app is: Roland - Piano Designer

I know you aren't looking at getting the RD2000; however, just from the POV of comparing the FP90 issue --- was interested to see if you can replicate the issue in the RD2000 (and also if you found the same issue in the V-piano sounds within the RD2000 as you find in the other modelled piano sounds that are shared between the FP90 and RD2000).
Sometimes, when you trial a model in store, someone else has set-up the board to their tastes, so trying out another instrument with the same modelling chip is a good way to rule these things in or out.

Kind regards,

Doug.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Replace failing P200 -Yamaha, Roland, Dynatone?
navindra #2858069 06/13/19 08:43 AM
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I really wish manufacturers would quit spewing this nonsense.
Originally Posted by navindra
Perform touch weight ... adjustments ...
No digital piano offers a way to adjust the touch weight.
No acoustic piano does either.
Only a piano technician (or a brave amateur) can make such adjustments to the action.

What digital pianos can do is adjust their sensitivity to your touch.
In other words, a touch-loudness control. A simplified version of a velocity curve.
But this adjustment makes NO change to the physical behavior of the keys.

Re: Replace failing P200 -Yamaha, Roland, Dynatone?
MacMacMac #2858123 06/13/19 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
What digital pianos can do is adjust their sensitivity to your touch.
In other words, a touch-loudness control. A simplified version of a velocity curve.
But this adjustment makes NO change to the physical behavior of the keys.

It does have a psychological effect. Since a lower velocity can make make the same loud sound as previously required a higher velocity, it does psychologically make the keyboard seem more sensitive (actually true) and lighter (not true, but in one's head).


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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Replace failing P200 -Yamaha, Roland, Dynatone?
Tyrone Slothrop #2858129 06/13/19 10:54 AM
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I've heard this before ...
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
It does have a psychological effect. Since a lower velocity can make make the same loud sound as previously required a higher velocity, it does psychologically make the keyboard seem more sensitive (actually true) and lighter (not true, but in one's head).
But it doesn't apply to me. I'm not sure it applies to anyone.
Heavy keys are heavy. Even if the sound is turned off completely ... a heavy key still feels heavy.
(This excludes my brother, of course. Because he aint heavy.)

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Hate RD-800 piano sound. Suggestions?
by namaurer - 07/14/20 07:42 PM
Robing Hood Syndrome.....
by Duaner - 07/14/20 07:04 PM
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